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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Could we ban "transvestigating" threads on here?

1000 replies

Christinapple · 09/12/2024 01:00

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5225715-ilona-maher

This one for example. Transvestigating is an informal term given to when people play detective and try to determine if a given person (usually a woman) is transgender or not from how they look e.g. photos.

I've seen it more than a few times on Twitter anytime a woman who is tall or muscular or "masculine looking" appears. Quite often, women are wrongly mistaken for being trans.

As well as being transphobic, IMO this harms all women and reinforces stereotypes of what men/women should look like. And the idea of obsessing over people's appearances like this just doesn't sit well with me.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Enough4me · 11/12/2024 00:23

"We go stealth" - a confession?
I'm surprised at the honesty. It 'outs' the wider behaviour to deceive.

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 01:02

Datun · 11/12/2024 00:11

I don't know if the boys you grew up around were this crass, but around my way they liked to chortle over slipping one past a girl while she was drunk,

Yes, indeed. In fact, part of the art of seduction, which was an aspiration for young men, deliberately involved plying the girl with alcohol. It was all part of the bloody technique.

Drugging women, plying them with alcohol, deceiving them, it's all part and parcel. It's such second nature to some men that half the time they don't even know they're doing it. Look at Gregg Wallace leveraging his power over his subordinates, and absolutely indignant that it should be called out.

Lad culture - that quintessentially 90's/00's expression of the wider long-standing rape culture - is sadly still endemic in the UK and we're seeing a deeply distressing resurgence amongst young men and boys right now, fuelled by the awful misogynistic rhetoric of neoreactionary youtubers and bloggers and hateful techbro demagogues like Musk.

As a direct, repeat victim of lad culture throughout my teens and twenties, including constant homophobic and transphobic abuse until I was able to escape it, and becoming subject to the all-consuming misogyny of the era after transition, I faced attempts to ply me into alcoholic oblivion at almost every social gathering for years with the express intention of getting me into bed. There was briefly a sweepstakes on who could manage it. When I discovered this and said how disgusted I was, I was told to laugh it off and not be so sensitive. I was 19.

I can assure you that:

A. Insinuations that trans women who spend years pursuing treatment in order to address lifelong dysphoria, do not disclose their medical history and then 'go stealth' in order to escape a life of constant, direct transphobic abuse are actually secretly doing so in order to gain access to vulnerable women are incredibly offensive.
B. Claims that they are somehow immune to sexual assault when they do successfully evade direct first-hand transphobic abuse and succeed at being perceived in a congruent fashion are completely nonsensical. I've hovered on the threshold of that doorway as an awkward and extremely vulnerable teenager and only narrowly escaped. There have been times when I haven't.
C. Claims that their experiences are inauthentic, hyperbolic, appropriative or otherwise invalid by default are offensive and dehumanising, and absolutely horrifying to encounter from fellow feminists on a feminist board.

I am genuinely shocked and really quite disturbed by the recent development of posters comparing me to a horrific serial rapist for choosing to keep sensitive details about medical treatment I received in my childhood private in a social climate where disclosing them would have ruined my life and exposed me to the torment I spent years trying to escape.

It has really shaken me to my core; I cannot even begin to fathom the viciousness and raw seething contempt that would inspire someone to not only make the initial comparison in full knowledge of the impact, but to then accuse me of narcissism when I respond to defend myself.

Well done, Mumsnet FWR. You have really outdone yourself today.

Datun · 11/12/2024 01:06

Enough4me · 11/12/2024 00:23

"We go stealth" - a confession?
I'm surprised at the honesty. It 'outs' the wider behaviour to deceive.

Quite.

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 01:15

Datun · 11/12/2024 01:06

Quite.

I’ve started skimming past the overly long comments. The me-me-me of it all is just too much.

A single word from Datun is a welcome antidote!

Datun · 11/12/2024 01:17

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 01:15

I’ve started skimming past the overly long comments. The me-me-me of it all is just too much.

A single word from Datun is a welcome antidote!

Indeed

Datun · 11/12/2024 01:17

😂

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 01:17

😍

Datun · 11/12/2024 01:17

Haha!

sillything · 11/12/2024 01:35

ButterflyHatched · 11/12/2024 01:02

Lad culture - that quintessentially 90's/00's expression of the wider long-standing rape culture - is sadly still endemic in the UK and we're seeing a deeply distressing resurgence amongst young men and boys right now, fuelled by the awful misogynistic rhetoric of neoreactionary youtubers and bloggers and hateful techbro demagogues like Musk.

As a direct, repeat victim of lad culture throughout my teens and twenties, including constant homophobic and transphobic abuse until I was able to escape it, and becoming subject to the all-consuming misogyny of the era after transition, I faced attempts to ply me into alcoholic oblivion at almost every social gathering for years with the express intention of getting me into bed. There was briefly a sweepstakes on who could manage it. When I discovered this and said how disgusted I was, I was told to laugh it off and not be so sensitive. I was 19.

I can assure you that:

A. Insinuations that trans women who spend years pursuing treatment in order to address lifelong dysphoria, do not disclose their medical history and then 'go stealth' in order to escape a life of constant, direct transphobic abuse are actually secretly doing so in order to gain access to vulnerable women are incredibly offensive.
B. Claims that they are somehow immune to sexual assault when they do successfully evade direct first-hand transphobic abuse and succeed at being perceived in a congruent fashion are completely nonsensical. I've hovered on the threshold of that doorway as an awkward and extremely vulnerable teenager and only narrowly escaped. There have been times when I haven't.
C. Claims that their experiences are inauthentic, hyperbolic, appropriative or otherwise invalid by default are offensive and dehumanising, and absolutely horrifying to encounter from fellow feminists on a feminist board.

I am genuinely shocked and really quite disturbed by the recent development of posters comparing me to a horrific serial rapist for choosing to keep sensitive details about medical treatment I received in my childhood private in a social climate where disclosing them would have ruined my life and exposed me to the torment I spent years trying to escape.

It has really shaken me to my core; I cannot even begin to fathom the viciousness and raw seething contempt that would inspire someone to not only make the initial comparison in full knowledge of the impact, but to then accuse me of narcissism when I respond to defend myself.

Well done, Mumsnet FWR. You have really outdone yourself today.

I faced attempts to ply me into alcoholic oblivion at almost every social gathering for years with the express intention of getting me into bed. There was briefly a sweepstakes on who could manage it.

I went into a public toilet just this evening, tried my best to look "manly", whatever that might mean, still didn't get kicked out :/

I know I sound very boring by repetiton by now, but what did your OFAB friends have that I don't, that they would be "clocked" as male while standing right next to you, whereas you did not?

I previously asked this in good faith.

After the quote above, I just burst into laughter 😃

sadmillenial · 11/12/2024 01:54

wow - i started reading this thread thinking it would be a sensitive discussion of the policing of femininity (probably a bit naive on my part)

i have a female friend who is 6'3 and in recent years has been aggressively questioned in public, and this is the result of "transvestigation" which i thought this thread would discuss. I think that is worth examining, whether gender critical or not. She's just a tall woman, and now is being asked to "prove" her sex to total strangers

i don't know how that conversation turns into categorising all trans women as predators??

NotBadConsidering · 11/12/2024 02:00

i don't know how that conversation turns into categorising all trans women as predators??

Isn’t it a relief it hasn’t, then.

Garlicwest · 11/12/2024 02:04

sadmillenial · 11/12/2024 01:54

wow - i started reading this thread thinking it would be a sensitive discussion of the policing of femininity (probably a bit naive on my part)

i have a female friend who is 6'3 and in recent years has been aggressively questioned in public, and this is the result of "transvestigation" which i thought this thread would discuss. I think that is worth examining, whether gender critical or not. She's just a tall woman, and now is being asked to "prove" her sex to total strangers

i don't know how that conversation turns into categorising all trans women as predators??

Seriously? If you did actually read the first couple of pages, you'll have seen the argument that the recent ubiquity of 'trans women' has prompted a new vigilance among women. We dislike it but feel it necessary.

categorising all trans women as predators??

However, your post isn't a genuine enquiry. No post here has come even close to calling all 'trans women' predators, but it's an overused line from the Trans Activist Handbook. Go away until your pals can come up with something more interesting.

Garlicwest · 11/12/2024 02:15

I have a female friend who is 6'3

If she exists, I'm not surprised she attracts attention! 0.003% of US women are this height, same in the UK, and 0.012% of Dutch women. Must be a nightmare to shop for trousers.

sadmillenial · 11/12/2024 02:16

Garlicwest · 11/12/2024 02:04

Seriously? If you did actually read the first couple of pages, you'll have seen the argument that the recent ubiquity of 'trans women' has prompted a new vigilance among women. We dislike it but feel it necessary.

categorising all trans women as predators??

However, your post isn't a genuine enquiry. No post here has come even close to calling all 'trans women' predators, but it's an overused line from the Trans Activist Handbook. Go away until your pals can come up with something more interesting.

"The person who goes stealth, whatever their reasons, is the predator, not the unknowing or unconscious victim."

this was the post I was referring to

and I disagree that the new vigilance (your words) is necessary, or that group policing femininity is in any way a victory for women.

"Go away until your pals can come up with something more interesting." - this feels reductive. Aren't I allowed space here? I'm fairly new to mumsnet, i dont know the etiquette....

sadmillenial · 11/12/2024 02:17

Garlicwest · 11/12/2024 02:15

I have a female friend who is 6'3

If she exists, I'm not surprised she attracts attention! 0.003% of US women are this height, same in the UK, and 0.012% of Dutch women. Must be a nightmare to shop for trousers.

very true - she is in the top percentile of height. she does exist lol.

Garlicwest · 11/12/2024 02:20

Welcome to Mumsnet. Here's a link to the Talk Guidelines. Regarding etiquette, especially in the feminism section, it's inadvisable to deploy faux naivety as we've seen it so often and give it short shrift.

HTH
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/netiquette

Mumsnet's Talk Guidelines | Mumsnet

A guide to using Mumsnet's discussion boards (Talk), including netiquette, rules of use and how to stay on the right side of the moderating team!

https://www.mumsnet.com/i/netiquette

sillything · 11/12/2024 02:45

sadmillenial · 11/12/2024 02:16

"The person who goes stealth, whatever their reasons, is the predator, not the unknowing or unconscious victim."

this was the post I was referring to

and I disagree that the new vigilance (your words) is necessary, or that group policing femininity is in any way a victory for women.

"Go away until your pals can come up with something more interesting." - this feels reductive. Aren't I allowed space here? I'm fairly new to mumsnet, i dont know the etiquette....

or that group policing femininity is in any way a victory for women.

For the love of dog, it's not about the colour pink, ribbons, frilly dresses or eyeliner!

You say you've just signed up to MN, but have managed to land in the midst of a very debated topic repeating the same arguments we've heard hundreds of times before. You also put before us an unbelievably rare fringe case for our consideration, another strategy that's far from new around here.

ChaChaChooey · 11/12/2024 02:50

I know a couple of women who are 6’2, 6’3 ish but the tallest man I know is a whopping 7’1!
One of the tall women is his fiancé (they met at a support group/social club thingy for tall people)

I have a photo of the 7’1 chap standing next to my 4’11 mother and it proper boggles your brain because you can’t quite tell if he’s the BFG or if she migrated to the UK from Lilliput.

sadmillenial · 11/12/2024 03:08

Garlicwest · 11/12/2024 02:20

Welcome to Mumsnet. Here's a link to the Talk Guidelines. Regarding etiquette, especially in the feminism section, it's inadvisable to deploy faux naivety as we've seen it so often and give it short shrift.

HTH
https://www.mumsnet.com/i/netiquette

ok, i'll read this

its not faux naivety, i was genuinely shocked by the direction the post took and thats why i commented.

ive been reading posts for maybe a few months, not often posting (although i have previously on this same forum). i dont think i will again if anything i say is immediately attacked as being some kind of coordinated bad faith argument.

Snowypeaks · 11/12/2024 03:12

sadmillenial · 11/12/2024 03:08

ok, i'll read this

its not faux naivety, i was genuinely shocked by the direction the post took and thats why i commented.

ive been reading posts for maybe a few months, not often posting (although i have previously on this same forum). i dont think i will again if anything i say is immediately attacked as being some kind of coordinated bad faith argument.

So you have RTFT, and the thing that shocked you was a thing that nobody actually said?

SaintCethleann · 11/12/2024 03:26

InvisibleBuffy · 10/12/2024 13:23

I don't believe a word of this. I'll probably get a strike for it, but it rings completely untrue to every single one of us who has actually been involved in feminist spaces, marches and protests.
You forget that we are the people who are at these things. If this was in anyway true, we'd see videos trending on YouTube and twitter of this kind of thing happening, the same way we see women constantly abused by trans activists.

Oh come on!
I bet the whole bus applauded when Butters came out!

btw, Butters, you're posting a lot - is the holiday not going well?

Garlicwest · 11/12/2024 03:43

I've going through a raging insomniac phase atm, so will kill a bit of time with this:

"The person who goes stealth, whatever their reasons, is the predator, not the unknowing or unconscious victim."

Stealth: a cautious, unobtrusive, and secretive way of moving or proceeding intended to avoid detection. (Merriam-Webster)

Instead of leaping to hyperbolic gendery outrage, @sadmillenial, you could've spend a few seconds considering the statement at face value. How many stealth situations can you easily think of, where the secretively cautious individual's motives are pure? How often is stealthy behaviour not designed to harm or take advantage of the deceived individual(s)?

Imagine you become aware of someone sneaking around behind you: when you look, there's nobody in sight, but the cautious, unobtrusive and secretive movements follow you. How do you feel about the person doing this?

Imagine you doze off while waiting for a delayed flight. You're unaware of someone cautiously sliding your bag away from you. Is their behaviour predatory or not? How about if they merely sit and stare at you, does this make you feel comfortable or threatened?

If you've got another moment - why on earth would you choose to ignore the very obvious meaning of that statement in favour of the Trans Activist Handbook deadthought about "all trans people"??

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/12/2024 06:28

ButterflyHatched · 10/12/2024 22:51

Mrs Justice Yip called the murder "exceptionally brutal and planned" and partly motivated by "hostility" due to Brianna's transgender identity.

She stated that it involved elements of transphobic hate by Ratcliffe and sadism on the part of Jenkinson.

Weird to see the desperation with which they are being defended here. Transphobia exists in the UK. It features daily in almost every mainstream newspaper. It exists in almost every pub, street and workplace; it exists in healthcare organisations; in family homes and in the halls of government.

It is enough of a problem that the UK gained a derisive nickname to highlight the pervasive grip of transphobia on its population years ago.

It is enough of a problem that multiple human rights orgs, including the UN office of the high commissioner for human rights, have been motivated to publish reports about it.

You are defending a pair of sadistic killers who were literally documented making transphobic banter about a trans girl they were planning to brutally murder. One of them was clearly and demonstrably obsessed with her and found her transness beguiling. She leveraged the other's clearly stated transphobic views in order to convince him to help her. It's all right there in the text.

The process of inciting political violence against particular demographic through hostile rhetoric is called stochastic terrorism. This process has been ongoing for over decade in the UK.

The rest of the world has been watching. They are concerned enough that they are now regularly raising the alarm.

Literally nobody is defending a pair of sadistic killers. What is wrong with you? We all agree that Brianna's murder was awful.

However, in the context of the fact that only one trans person has been murdered in the UK in recent years and neither the police nor the judge found evidence that transphobia was the primary or even a significant motive, it is absolutely disgraceful for you and other trans activists to keep banging the "most oppressed and vulnerable" drum and claiming that trans people are victims of violent crime at a much higher rate than other people when this is not true.

And it was particularly disgusting of you to respond to a poster revealing that she was a victim of John Worboys by saying, "Yes, how terrible, but let's talk about me some more."

Justwrong68 · 11/12/2024 06:29

sadmillenial · 11/12/2024 01:54

wow - i started reading this thread thinking it would be a sensitive discussion of the policing of femininity (probably a bit naive on my part)

i have a female friend who is 6'3 and in recent years has been aggressively questioned in public, and this is the result of "transvestigation" which i thought this thread would discuss. I think that is worth examining, whether gender critical or not. She's just a tall woman, and now is being asked to "prove" her sex to total strangers

i don't know how that conversation turns into categorising all trans women as predators??

You honestly don't see how we got here?

illinivich · 11/12/2024 07:20

sadmillenial

What should women do? Men are telling us that they are using womens toilets, are we just supposed accept it?

Rather than blame the women who are questioning people in these spaces, why not blame the men who are bragging about it?

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