big argument with old friend

[ramenmonster]

Met up with old male (gay) friend and he raised the trans thing. He denied biological reality of two sexes, and told me lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women. That men should be allowed in women's bathrooms, in women's sports, prisons. That the biological differences between XX and XY make no difference and those men participating in sports are "real women".

I asked him why it was always men who are telling what women should and shouldn't accept, why men are always the ones who tell us we have to "deal with it" and that apparently helping trans people is more important than women (despite us being the weaker sex and 50% of the population).

After some of the things he said I'm now wondering if he's really just a massive misogynist with no clue about actual women's issues. I'm not sure where our friendship can go from here.

Just venting and asking for some solidarity.

I had a similar situation with old friends of mine - two friends were very pro trans and myself and another (funnily were the ones with children- wonder if that affects our viewpoint?) believe that women and children should have their spaces protected.
I have no issue with men dressing as women in public spaces- you do you so to speak- but don't deny scientific reality and do 2+2=5. Or bring it into protected spaces.
I don't think I will end up seeing those old friends again as they are so far detached from reality.

'I'm not anti trans rights, I just don't want them at the expense of women's rights and safe spaces, which are there for a good reason'

Exactly. ALL people should be protected from violence, harassment or discrimination. The problem is that 'trans rights' seems to mean a certain group of people demanding all the things they want all of the time, and screaming about hate and phobia when they don't get them

"lots of scientists and doctors would disagree that there is a biological difference between men and women"

Literally couldn't even name one, let alone lots. Sources (other than Dr YouTube)?

I'm sorry to hear about this, OP. it's really disheartening to be labelled a bigot just for raising legitimate concerns. There are people who are fairly on the fence about this debate who are open to listening to different viewpoints, but it seems futile with your friend as his views are too entrenched, and he is not going to be swayed by logic.

Claiming that there are no biological differences between men and women is crazy. If that is the case, why have the golf, cricket and fencing sporting bodies, following a lengthy consultation from scientists and medical experts, all recently announced that transwoman will be banned from elite competition in the women's category. I suppose he thinks they're bigoted too.

It is gaslighting on a massive scale and that is another reason why:

a) the whole thing feels incredibly uncomfortable and
b) why so many mature women recognize transactivism as being an abusive activity - because so many of us have experienced it over a lifetime of relationships of various sorts with men.

Transactivism has been taken over by abusive men. Those defending it are like flying monkeys, who have fallen for the grift and see victims where we see narcissism.

Something made DH realise recently how women feel about walking home alone at night. He said the penny dropped. It had never crossed his mind to feel unsafe in the dark, but he said "Now I get it, how you feel all the time." He's 63!

He's a massive mysoginist.

And probably also really not on top of gender ideology at all. It may be too late to raise it now, but it would be interesting to get his reaction to the suggestion that, if there are really no differences between men and women, why has he decided he is attracted exclusively to male bodies? And how does he feel about being called a bigot for not wanting to bump uglies with women who call themselves men?

Can you tell what it was that made the penny drop? No worries if it’s too private.

When you say, ramenmonster, that your friend is is 'genuinely concerned' about
trans people, their struggle and what they are going through in the media at the moment,
I have to ask: what struggle? what are they 'going through in the media'?

I can't think of any group campaigning for their rights that has had everything handed to them on a plate in just a matter of years - everything they asked for, including the right to self-ID on the basis of nothing but 'feelings'; and on the whole the media has been so pro-trans as to compromise even the most basic objectivity and factual accuracy.

The real struggle has been by women trying to hang on to our basic rights, which it took centuries to achieve, and which have been blown out of the water in a matter of years, at the behest of trans rights activists.

Your friend obviously fell hard for the 'most marginalised/literal genocide' line, but when you write
trans people, their struggle and what they are going through in the media at the moment
you sound like you haven't been completely immune yourself.

Trans people are doing OK, including in the media, and trans rights are doing just fine at the expense of women's rights, so your 'concern for trans people's wellbeing and safety' is superfluous.
Nobody is trying to take trans people's human rights away, and their wellbeing and safety is not particularly under threat.

The same can't be said about women, so concern for women's wellbeing and safety, including from attacks by trans activists, is more justified by the facts.

It's always tough to lose a friend, though, so -

NAGM but many of the gay men I k ow are misogynistic to varying degrees.

"But it is incredibly painful, not least because people who should know we are kind and accepting from our actions towards them for however many years, are so ready to believe that we have suddenly become hate-filled bigots."

I think you hit the nail on the head here! thank you for your kind and considered response @PriOn1 . And the other flipside is that when we realise the misogyny inherent in some of their arguments that too is very difficult to understand, in someone that you have cared about for such a long time.

As a gay man, if your friend wished to become a biological parent would he ask a transwoman to carry his child?

There is an article in Unherd about the Menendez brothers who cold-bloodedly murdered their parents. Lived high on the hog on their parent's money before the law caught up with them. There's currently and, to me, inexplicably a campaign to free them. Not because they've served their time, which is arguable, but because they claim the murders were justified!

I am going somewhere with this.

The writer posits that the problem is empathy. The ability to sympathise with your idea of another person. How this creates an enemy of anyone who does not see the same idea, who might see a bigger picture or even the complete opposite.

Although the article is not about transpeople and their supporters, I think the parallels are obvious.

It's here if anyone wants to read it

https://unherd.com/2024/12/the-menendez-brothers-prey-on-empathy/

People can be vicious if they feel their egos are being attacked.

As a gay man, if your friend wished to become a biological parent would he ask a transwoman to carry his child?

😂😂 Oh god that's brilliant.

I get as far as "if you're gay, who would you shag?" But yes, when it comes to procreation that's the cincher

As a gay man, if your friend wished to become a biological parent would he ask a transwoman to carry his child?

Surely he can carry it himself if there is no discernible difference between males and females?

@MarieDeGournay thank you - I appreciate your considered response.

Just to clarify, I mean there are some people who are transphobic / bigoted against trans people that will feel emboldened by the polarised intensity of debate, so in this way trans people suffer.

That does not mean that I take women's rights any less seriously though nor fail to recognise the huge negative effect on women.

That's a good point. If he really wanted to have a child, it's not too big a sacrifice for him to identify as a woman for a few months.

a person is a 100% woman if they feel like one

If they feel like what, a human?
He's saying there is literally no difference between men and women - either physically (which there is no way he actually believes that - he's just lying) or personality-wise.

So how can someone feel like a woman and not a man if they are both just names for the same type of human?

I can only assume he sees 'woman' as a kind of non-human, not really a thing, just an offshoot of the 'real people who count' ie men.
Vile.

He doesn't need to identify as a woman. There is no difference between a man and a woman, he says. Therefore anyone is equally likely to be able to carry a child, whether they are male, female, man or woman.

You're right. I need to do better™️.

Women are being colonised, he may not care, but your friend does not perhaps realise his rights are being decimated too? A whole generation of young gay kids being told they are "born wrong" and need to be experimented on. The definition of gay has been changed!
Perhaps he'd listen to Dennis Kavenagh, Barry Wall, the EDI Jester on YouTube, Clive Simpson's Two Poofs & A Podcast on Substack? I'm sure there are plenty more gay men standing up against this.

Really interesting article. Thanks for posting. The 'spotlight' idea makes sense to me.

@ramenmonster please bear in mind that trans whatever are not truly physically trans until all the bits and bobs have been taken away so a fully transman would be unable to carry a baby with no uterus/

Adding that it’s clear how the arrogant doctors and crazy academics have misled so many people into thinking somehow there’s such a thing as a third sex or how sex is a spectrum.

The saying that 'A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes.' Is very apt under the circumstances.

You're clearly letting your bigoted views that only one type of person can potentially carry a child colour your judgement! Not very inclusive cake. Educate yourself from these unnamed "many doctors".

Many people in the trans community would read that claim as being very transphobic.