Intersex

[Tootsurly]

Bit of a thought experiment, plus curious as to how much people know about intersex conditions / DSDs.

This is slightly Black Mirror, although not totally beyond the realms of possibility. If there ever came a point where anything specifically related to being male or female required a DNA test to determine your sex before participating, what would happen to intersex people whose chromosomes didn't match their outward appearance (i.e. genotype and phenotype don't match)?

I don't have as much knowledge as, say, an endocrinologist, but I think I probably know more than the average woman on the street. What I do know is that there are some very common misconceptions (such as everyone with a DSD has ambiguous genitalia) or that being trans and being intersex is the same thing.

I didn't mean to paint myself as an expert and maybe could have worded my OP better. I do think it's a bit unfair to say I have "little understanding" though, compared with a non expert.

"I'm certainly not going to quibble with Prof Winston. The reason for this (I think) is that foetuses are female by default, so if the SRY gene is faulty they don't (can't) become male."

This isn't true, it's something some people believe to be true because of nipples, but from the moment of conception the sex and chromosomes are present, if not then people wouldn't be able to sex select embryos to ensure they have a girl or boy.

Embryos contain DNA the moment they are conceived, when the sperm and egg combine their chromosomes to form a diploid zygote.

I can understand your fear but from what in see from those campaigning in the area of sports, they have an extremely good understanding of the difference (fondofbeetles for example).

The general public generally don't have much of a clue and this site is most definitely not reflective of the general public, so asking your question on here will give you a biased answer.

I know they are two different categories, but a lot of people don't, it seems.

Possibly. Depends what the question is!

You'll find that many of us here have had to become knowledgeable in this area because those with DSD's have been used as a gotcha by those that have little understanding of the subject.

I don't see why anyone would do that tbh but I'm sorry that you have to put up with that fear

Yes, I realise now I was misinformed about this.

I don’t think anyone thinks that someone who naturally develops female internal/external anatomy with XY chromosomes is in any way the same as someone who surgically mutilates perfectly healthy male anatomy to form a non functioning caricature of female anatomy.

im sorry if this thought experiment has made you feel vulnerable to this

I don't see why it's fascinating it's a disorder like many other disorders

I find it a fascinating field too, but I find much of developmental biology fascinating, not just the stuff related to gender development

I also self identify as intersex.

I agree that you either have a male DSD or a female DSD and blood testing will reveal these conditions.

I don't think it's fair to allow females with a DSD to participate in women's sports where there is a sporting advantage. No males with a DSD should be allowed because they're male.

Yes, that is something I very much object to.

No because transwomen are men, intersex can be men or women and are born into a body that has anomalies. If a transwomen finds out they have a genetic anomaly then they can redefine themselves. Transwomen are born male and choose to transition at a later stage by choice.
I suppose technically intersex can do the same so if they are genetically male and identify as male they can transition at a later stage. But they will still be genetically male.
If you are intersex but present biologically as female due to the effect of hormones ( natural hormone blockers) once diagnosed you can choose. But what we shouldn’t assume is that they want to be women.
Nowadays the handling of intersex is much better and individuals do have a choice. It hasn’t always been that way.
It would be wrong to think that transwomen are in the same position though

Maybe not if they are someone who has the intelligence to make that comparison in as clear as way as you have described it. But it definitely happens.

For what it's worth, I don't like being part of LGBT at all as a DSD is a medical condition, not a sexuality or an identity.

I suppose it is fascinating if biology fascinates you, yes.

How do you self identify?

Intersex isn't really an identity, it's a congenital condition (although to be fair some intersex people do rather make it their entire identity).

Which variation do you self identify as having?

I've never understood why a medical condition was in with the rest of the alphabet.

And this is the essence of the ongoing argument. Sexual preference has nothing to do with your gender, something that trans communities struggle with.

I take it fondofbeetles is someone's username?

I guess it's not, but it's the nearest I could think of!

Isn’t Intersex an outdated term nowadays? It’s mostly been rejected by all but the LGBTQI+ lobbyists who co-opted this term to push gender woo.

You are male or female, with a difference in development affecting sex characteristics. Some of the specific conditions are directly attributed to one sex only. For instance the DSD affecting males with internal testes.

Yes, that is my point. I hold three degrees in genetics.

Fondofbeetles can be found on X i think

And as Helen Joyce says, the comparison with red heads is ridiculous as it isn't consistent across the globe (whereas presumably the incidence of DSDs broadly is).

No, it's not consistent across the globe - in populations with higher consanguineous marriage it's much more common.

I suppose that I would be put in the same category as transwomen.

Of course you wouldn't. TW don't have any ambiguity about their sex. They're male. They don't have DSDs.

Yes sorry, fondofbeetles is her name on Twitter. Dr Emma Hilton. She's a development biologists and her research has been instrumental in changing policies for sports regarding males in female sports. She's worth a follow on Twitter as she's very knowledgeable.