Intersex

[Tootsurly]

Bit of a thought experiment, plus curious as to how much people know about intersex conditions / DSDs.

This is slightly Black Mirror, although not totally beyond the realms of possibility. If there ever came a point where anything specifically related to being male or female required a DNA test to determine your sex before participating, what would happen to intersex people whose chromosomes didn't match their outward appearance (i.e. genotype and phenotype don't match)?

I don't have particularly strong feelings about the term "intersex", although I do agree there's really no such thing. (I have much stronger feelings about its inclusion in the gender identity alphabet soup.)

Sounds like a sensible position to take. Agreeing there's no such thing is the important bit. When facts get lost, that's where it goes wrong.

My TERF views don't tend to go down terribly well and Helen Joyce is seen as the devil incarnate or worse.

I can imagine!

Yes, I have SS. It's shitty, but perhaps not so bad as some of the other variations.

I can't imagine Swyer is easy.

I would agree with PPs that there are a few circles on this thread. However, as you say, you're not an expert in DSDs.

Dr Emma Hilton is a great person to follow on the whole subject of DSDs. She did a great job deconstructing the topic during the Olympics. The main focus was 5-ARD, because of the prevalence of males with this DSD in women's sport, but she also covered Swyer, Turner's, CAIS, PAIS and more. Most of it unfolded on X and lots of us were asking questions. Lots of it got pulled in to MN threads.

It's a phrase used by someone who either accompanied Darwin or about Darwin himself. He was fond of beetles.

She is not fond of beetles. See my previous post.

on the other hand, there are many people who regard themselves as having an intersex variation, and do not like being described as having a DSD

Socially I would refer to them as women and girls but they are men and boys.

I would say a sentence like this must be very upsetting and confusing to some people with particular XY DSDs who have identified as women and girls their whole life and only go on to discover they are genetically male when they encounter issues at puberty or with infertility.

A person would only know they had a DSD if they had been tested for it either very soon. After birth or, as more often happens, at the expected time of puberty. Once tested, they would then know what sex they are. Male or female. Why would they need and exemption card?

I agree, and don't see how they can ever be men, because they are incapable of going through male puberty.

It’s pretty offensive to use an outdated term that used to indicate that a person was ‘between’ male and female. And yes, the sex of a person is entirely based on their chromosomes. Flat chested women are not male, men with moobs are not female. Men in dresses are not female. Men who are only 5 ft tall are not female…

Good question - and remember this is a personal daydream, I'm not setting national policy for anything!

Because it seems to me that CAIS is not always complete. I don't know how many of the people designated CAIS but clearly showing some masculine development have lied about it or been lied to, neither do I know how easy it is to test for levels of insensitivity. (I don't need to know.)

There's also the fact that women are not androgen insensitive. I have an online friend with CAIS; she says she's more 'feminine' than XX women in certain ways, and I believe her. It does mark her out from genetic women, though, because we have experiences related to the fluctuations & variations of natural testosterone in our bodies.

Swyer Syndrome's a more straightforward case in my view. Many women here would disagree with me on that. I understand why.

~ I'm aware I've used female pronouns for my CAIS acquaintance. Like most people, I use the words that feel right to me in personal situations. I would not do this in detached discussion because words do have meanings!

Ok, in that case I am very offended.

Except they should still be checked for male diseases. Generally they discover their chromosomes at puberty and it should be handled sensitively. If I met the OP I would refer to her as she and her and describe her as a woman. Indeed I would probably not know that she has a DSD unless she told me. I'm not saying that I would start referring to her as a man or him once I knew.

I have a friend who is a trans-identifying woman. I only knew him as a man until he told me that he was trans. Though once I knew, it was obvious. I don't refer to him as she or her even though he is female because it's not polite. But I would very much encourage him to be checked for female cancers etc.

My point is that we have to use language carefully in the right context. I would refer to my trans friend as a woman and use female pronouns if I didn't know him as a friend, but I generally refer to trans-identifying people by their natal sex pronouns.

In what way is he female?

Hilton

Id hazard a guess that the majority of them also do not have a DSD, but just self identify as having one.

My trans friend?

He's a woman who has taken testosterone and had surgery and calls himself a transman. He grew up wishing he had XY 5-ARD.

If he were a woman I'd heard of but didn't know personally as a friend I would refer to him as she because it gets confusing.

Oh dear!

He's a trans-identifying woman.

A female person who says she's a man.

😂😂

@Wonderi, you've got the wrong end of a few sticks there!

Which half of this chap was "literally female"??

Wishing you had a condition which causes immeasurable issues to those who actually do have it is the height of privilege .

Actually I think it's a sign of how damaging my friend's childhood was. Far from privilege.

There would be a marker on it to explain the mismatch.

Also, depending on the circumstances, the marker might or might not be relevant. It would always be for sport, of course.

We don't use the term intersex on these boards because we were specifically asked to refrain by a representative of an advocacy group for people living with DSDs.
However, across the Atlantic, "intersex" seems to be an accepted term to describe the tiny fraction of DSDs which result in ambiguous genitalia at birth.

Swyer's Syndrome must be an incredibly difficult condition to get your head around, especially if you only discover it at puberty. So you have my sympathy, OP.

Whether or not someone with a cross-phenotype (I've just made that term up!) is deemed the opposite sex depends on the context. I'm not talking about the sex they choose to present as, I mean what category they fit best in when it comes to hospital wards, sporting categories, the Oscars, single sex services, etc. All should be delicately handled, but the other people in the category have rights, needs, etc as well. That should not be forgotten.

I sometimes wonder if it would be better for us all if DSDs were more widely known about and understood - but I am aware that it's not my issue.

@Tootsurly

As far as I am concerned, you are a woman (assuming you're happy with that). Karyotype isn’t everything.

People who have been through male puberty are men.

People who have developed normally in accordance with karyotype should not get any further choice in the matter.

Probably the wider hips and gynaecomastia (if xxy then this prisoner has Klinefelters and is unambiguously male) - both of which are also found in plenty of bog standard xy men.

Klinefelters seems to be the dsd of choice for the transwoman who fantasises about being "intersex".

Back in the real word, a chromosome test stopped bein part of the trans diagnostic process decades ago as dsds are not more prevalent in the trans population.

XXY is Klinefelters Syndrome. Individuals are male but often have small testicles and infertility. Definitely male appearance though and not half male half female. As far as I know all individuals with a DSD are one sex or the other with abnormal development. Would it be another chromosomal abnormality that this individual had?

To be honest I’m not sure.

They were ‘female’ as a young child and then they physically became more male and so grew up identifying as a male.
It is only recently and with the increase in identifying with a different gender, have they reverted back to using female pronouns but I don’t know if they will stick to it.

It is very interesting to see in person.
I have seen female athletes on TV with very high levels of testosterone and so have very male features but they are still female just very masculine.
I don’t know what their chromosomes are.

But you could not tell whether this person is male or female.
They put on a lower voice and is very loud and defensive of and try and act quite masculine, probably because they are very feminine looking and are surrounded by men.

It’s very easy to see how they get in to trouble as they have grown up not really knowing their identity and having to basically defend themselves.