Intersex

[Tootsurly]

Bit of a thought experiment, plus curious as to how much people know about intersex conditions / DSDs.

This is slightly Black Mirror, although not totally beyond the realms of possibility. If there ever came a point where anything specifically related to being male or female required a DNA test to determine your sex before participating, what would happen to intersex people whose chromosomes didn't match their outward appearance (i.e. genotype and phenotype don't match)?

My comment is based on people with CAIS seemingly being over represented in the top levels of sport (but that is a) disputed and if it is so b) requires further research as to whether it’s due to the presence of partial male strength/size advantage or the absence of some factors of female disadvantage eg training needing to be arranged around periods and pregnancies).

I would imagine (personal speculation!) that any additional strength in people who appear more or less typically female but are karyotypically male would be due to the presence of internal testes, where relevant (or the presence of internal testes at some previous point in neonate or childhood development, since surgically removed) but how much an individual body would benefit from that strength wise will be based on other factors present or absent in the particular condition eg CAIS or PAIS.

However, the over representation of CAIS in elite sports is not explained by circulating testosterone, so requires further research.

https://x.com/fondofbeetles/status/1070098298885890050?s=46&t=ibVI24cP7Ts3w2nqa22VXg

Ah, sorry, you were talking about CAIS, not Swyer's.

I got quite cross when various sources were saying that Imane Khalif had Swyer's and that this explained the high testosterone levels.

As far as I’m aware there is no evidence for Swyers being over represented in elite female sports (or present at all really, possibly due to the associated complications such as early onset osteoporosis).

It’s really 5ARD that’s the biggie in female sports, especially when it comes to athletes who appear to be male based on male-typical appearance ie things like limb length (reach is very important in boxing).

It was the TRAs and the TRA sympathisers (lazy copy and pasters) who used Swyers as a possible explanation for Khalif but anyone who has been following DSDs in sports from a GC perspective would start with 5ARD as the most likely, followed by PAIS/CAIS.

Unscrupulous coaches seek out these 5ARD boys-with-female-birth-certificates in poorer countries because they know they can beat female athletes. It’s like the East German doping scandal without the need for any dope.

The CAIS athlete over representation is unlikely to have been ‘gamed’ in the way that 5ARD is because CAIS kids aren’t identifiable without medical testing, whereas a ‘girl’ who becomes a ‘boy’ at puberty is observable in the community, no testing required (ie in some cultures 5ARD is known colloquially as ‘penis at 12’)

This is such an interesting article/exploration.
Thanks for posting!

I love this part:

Authenticity is a morally suspect aim in any case, since it diverts concern away from others to oneself. A productive and virtuous life with love, friendship, and an appreciation of truth and beauty is authenticity enough. And that can be accomplished whether one lives in a social manner characteristic of one’s own sex, the other sex, or neither.

💐💐💐💪💪💪

For both you and @orkid

(Orkid, I disagree with you on 5-ARD - it's a male only DSD - but that doesn't stop me recognising how distressing it must be to have that condition).

This.

Being blunt, I think believing in god is as ridiculous as believing that we all have a gender identity.

Being diplomatic, I think that believing in god makes as much sense as believing that we all have a gender identity.

I fully accept that plenty of people believe in either or both of these things and that they are likely to think I'm "wrong". I'm not going to argue with them about whether I'm right or they are. The world is a far more interesting place because we all believe different things to help us make sense of the meaning of life etc.

Just as I wouldn't try and stop someone being radicalised by religion by saying "why are you planning to [whatever action they were going to take] when there's no such thing as god?", I wouldn't tell someone who was thinking about making changes to their body to align it with their perceived gendered soul that "there's no such thing as gender identity".

Apologies OP for this derail. I'm also happy to leave it there. It's not about having the last word, just making sure I'm expressing myself as clearly as I can. I completely accept that some people have a different take on it all. My "neutral" approach reminded me of the way you're not impacted either way by the word "intersex" i.e. you're not offended by it nor are you defending it as the only way to describe DSDs. Personally I find it more effective to let differences in language use fly over my head and just concentrate instead on the substance of what's being said.

The historic context of the terminology... when I started looking up books in the library the official term was "male pseudo-hermaphrodite" which freaked 16 yr old me out. For a long time families affected by these XY conditions congregated around the term AIS, even if that wasn't the specific condition, partly because of the less dehumanising term and also the work of the AISSG, first in the UK (where people used to come from all over the world for very emotional meetings) and then groups in the US, Aus, etc.

Then the Intersex Society of North America (ISNA) was founded (in the 90s I think?) and there was a lot of discussion of the term, but ISNA did a great job in supporting a lot of people with other conditions who did not identify with the mostly female-identified (sorry, I don't know what words to use here) nature of most of the membership of AISSG. I guess it tried to de-medicalize support and step away from thinking of 'conditions'. But critics of the term and particularly those who think medical support is a primary need coalesced around DSDs.

Interesting background info re: terminology, thanks!

I find myself wondering how supportive current day ‘Intersex’ orgs are for those who are seeking solidarity with others with similar XY/female appearance conditions (whether that to bond over the shared psychological experience of an unanticipated diagnosis or to give/seek treatment/doctor recommendations).

From the bit of Intersex advocacy that’s visible online the majority of intersex-as-identity people seem to be XXY men and plain ol XY men with inner lady-feelings (MtF trans) or FtM trans teens who are trying on an identity that makes them feel special/belong to an exclusive club (see also DID and Tourette’s self IDers)

I find myself wondering how supportive current day ‘Intersex’ orgs are for those who are seeking solidarity with others with similar XY/female appearance conditions (whether that to bond over the shared psychological experience of an unanticipated diagnosis or to give/seek treatment/doctor recommendations).

That is a very good point and something I worry about. When I got diagnosed, and when I sought out the support group, there was no one asking me if I was "really a woman". We just got on with finding the best medical specialists, and helping each other feel less freakish and alone.

I think it must be very difficult to be a young person being diagnosed with a DSD nowadays, with all this open debate centering on gender issues. In my opinion the sports issue has been very damaging to people coming to grips with having one of these conditions.

(Just to be explicit: I absolutely think these athletes with male puberty have no place in female sports, while I have full sympathy for their difficulties.)

Thank you for "stepping out" into this thread and commenting. I have the utmost respect for you (and the OP) for doing so, given how personal all of this must undoubtedly feel. Your contributions have been really informative.

(Just to be explicit: I absolutely think these athletes with male puberty have no place in female sports, while I have full sympathy for their difficulties.)

This ⬆️

“From the bit of Intersex advocacy that’s visible online the majority of intersex-as-identity people seem to be XXY men and plain ol XY men with inner lady-feelings (MtF trans)”

Depressingly, there do seem to be an increasing number of transvestite grifters who, on realising women are starting to win the discussion about what a woman is, have moved from simply lying about being women to lying that they are intersex women.

These men are narcissists who will appropriate anything that gets them attention. There was even one of these men proudly displaying a TV program he’d been involved with about people with DSDs. They are truly sick.

OP, to answer your original question, I hope the scenario you describe would never, ever become reality. I can understand in women’s sports that chromosome testing might be a starting point, but even in sports, it should only be a starting point because the situation is complex, as we can see from this thread.

You claim ignorance but you seem very didactic!

Just read that you have SS. Sorry if I was rude.