Intersex

[Tootsurly]

Bit of a thought experiment, plus curious as to how much people know about intersex conditions / DSDs.

This is slightly Black Mirror, although not totally beyond the realms of possibility. If there ever came a point where anything specifically related to being male or female required a DNA test to determine your sex before participating, what would happen to intersex people whose chromosomes didn't match their outward appearance (i.e. genotype and phenotype don't match)?

You've obviously got some reading to do about DSDs, but to answer your original post, a person whose DNA/ Chromosomes/ whatever are known will have to live with it the same as everyone else.

If somebody's phenotype doesn't appear like their karyotype would suggest, this doesn't prevent them from behaving in a particular way, or dressing a particular way.

I'm quite knowledgeable on this topic (bio degree, have taught it for many years and long before it became a hot topic).
I would agree with Prof Winston (obviously - be a fool not to agree).

There are some conditions that affect those with XY which will mean they will develop as females. Historically they only really found out when they investigated why their periods didn't start. They would look completely female.

I suppose if they brought in genetic testing they would identify their actual condition. I can't remember which sport said only those who haven't been through male puberty could compete in female sports. This would include DSD's like Swyer's syndrome and CAIS but exclude DSD's such a alpha 5 reductase (condition Imane Khelif/caster semenya) as they go through male puberty.

In my thought experiment.

Ok nothing would happen to then

Well that’s settled in law already, thanks to a transwoman.

Sex is chromosomes, gonads, genitals and gametes.

so someone with say, 5ARD has XY chromosomes, internal testes, ambiguous genitalia and either produces sperm or nothing at all, depending on the severity of the disorder.

Thank you for clarifying.

Presumably you're specifically thinking of 46 XY 5-ARD, which is the DSD that is causing all the contention in women's boxing, running and football (plus no doubt other sports).

This is a male only DSD that is most likely going to be impossible to spot at birth. As a result of this DSD, the scrotum and penis won't form until puberty. For some, their testicles will remain internal. Because of the order in which reporoductive organs form in development, the external genitalia will look indistinguishable from female genitalia until puberty, even though all the internal male plumbing is there.

This DSD must be devastating for those who have it. Thankfully it's rare. Although there are pockets of the world where it is more prevalent (though still rare overall), such as here where it is "common" enough to be given the name guevedoces, which means "penis at 12":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-34290981

So what's likely to happen in pretty much every case is that a boy with this DSD will initially believe himself to be a girl. Then during puberty he'll discover his sex.

Unfortunately for society, sometimes males with this DSD will fly under the radar in sport and will compete on the female passports/birth certificate that they were issued when it was understandably assumed that they were girls.

I should imagine most boys with this condition would want to be tested when they started to experience the confusion and distress of unexpected male puberty at about age 13. Some may end up being coerced into women's sports. Some may see the opportunity of women's sports all by themselves without the coercion.

Regardless, the dystopian situation where anything that is related to being male or female requires genetic testing won't happen.

If you're really curious about how much people on this board know about DSDs, it's worth reading the boxing threads from the summer. Clue: the answer is lots.

I'm not going to join in with the thought experiment any more though.

Should clarify, when I say develop as females I don't mean develop ovaries etc, I mean they will look female growing up and won't look like men, so they may be totally unaware that they have male chromosomes and internal testes etc.

Well this has been very interesting.

Drip feed: (I thought it would have been obvious by now, but apparently not) I have a DSD.

Also, as I am intersex I know a lot of intersex people and - for what it's worth - they all use the term "intersex" and rarely the term "DSD".

I don't know every detail about every DSD as there are many variations and I'm not a biologist, but I am reasonably well-informed about my own.

Carrie Hull vis-a-vis Fausto Sterling.

No, I'm thinking of 46XY complete gonadal dysgenesis, as I said!

"I was only joking" says Anne Fausto Sterling

Are you posting under a different user name on aibu?

Your cheek swab may not also be a true reflection of the genetics that exist in all tissues, but is good at picking up mosaicism, so you’ll find individuals who have a mixed genotype, some cells with XY and some with XX, some maybe with XO too (single X chromosome). All of those genotypes can exist within the cells of a single individual and may not have much of a phenotypic effect depending on the level of mosaicism and in what tissues.

Sex chromosome loss is also normal as we age, so it’s normal for woman over 30 to have some cells with only one X chromosome and in older males to lose the Y. (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1801353/)

You want to be careful with those hypothetical cheek swabs and scenarios ;)

May I ask what it is you fear will happen?

This is incorrect. The ovum is intrinsically female but the sperm can be either x or y or variations. Once they combine they are almost always male or female.
I think what you are confused by is the expression of the genes on these chromosomes at a definitive point in development. The embryos may look the same but are programmed differently. Anomalies in expression cause DSD and it can be due to mutations of the gene or extra chromosomes or fragments of chromosomes.
Ultimately we are a chemical soup that produces male or female fetuses with a very occasional DSD. There are infinite combinations but the majority are incompatible with life.
How most of us make it past conception is a miracle in itself.

And as Helen Joyce says, the comparison with red heads is ridiculous as it isn't consistent across the globe (whereas presumably the incidence of DSDs broadly is).

@Tootsurly I'm also curious. When you stated you were curious about the degree of knowledge people held about intersex conditions/DSDs you gave the impression you yourself would have a lot of knowledge in order to judge this.

However, and I'm not judging you for this as it's very common, you appear to have little understanding yourself. So how exactly would you draw conclusions? People could say anything and you wouldn't know!

Yes of course it is. They think they're so clever but we've seen it all.

I suppose that I would be put in the same category as transwomen.

What, currently? No.

Transwomen are males who identify as women.

People with DSDs are either male or female. There is no requirement to identify as anything.

Two very different categories.

I'm not going along with the thought experiment but I'm curious about your DSD. Are you happy to share more about it?

It is possible to have chimerism where you have absorbed a twin and their genes can be detected. Also mosaicism can cause anomies in genetic testing. This can also happen after having children.
Some individuals can have mosaic downed syndrome which is only detectable genetically and the individual shows no physical signs.
Genetics is not clear cut.

There's currently another poster who says they are intersex and also that they prefer intersex to DSD.

It’s absolutely fascinating to be honest.