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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERFs are not the problem

497 replies

niadainud · 30/11/2024 21:20

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

OP posts:
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GailBlancheViola · 04/12/2024 13:37

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:32

This is talking about 'sex by deception', whereby a person deceives a sexual partner as to their sex.

A person who decided to send me to prison over a protected characteristic I possess and I am allowed, by human rights law, to keep confidential - which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably. It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

It's unbelievable that someone would actually write and admit they have so little regard for consent.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:38

It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

What we don't know won't hurt us, is that the argument?

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:39

Because Gisele Pelicot may have something to say about that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 13:39

I highly doubt it is an issue very often because most "trans women" are obviously male, but if a man or a woman consented to sex on the basis that they thought a man was female, it's indeed a deception on that man's part to let them go on thinking that just so they can have sex. Legally and morally.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:40

All the 'sex by deception' cases wrt trans people that I've read about have involved trans identifying females, yep. And usually convoluted stories including blindfolds etc.

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2024 13:43

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 13:17

You are literally striving to remove human rights legislation that has protected me from discrimination for almost my entire adult life. This is not an ambiguous matter, no matter how you choose to reframe it.

Human rights legislation exists that protects me from discrimination.

You are striving to remove it.

Are you not striving to remove it? Please do say if so.

I have a protected characteristic (more than one in fact). I am horrified by the idea that a person would actively discriminate against me over any protected characteristic that anyone might possess. This is not an unreasonable thing to be horrified by.

We fought for a very long time to allow people to be intimate with others who they find attractive. For their choice to be free and predicated only on mutual attraction regardless of what their chromosomes are.

A person who decided to send me to prison over a protected characteristic I possess and I am allowed, by human rights law, to keep confidential - which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably. It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

If I discovered a partner held discriminatory beliefs that horrify me then I would be horrified at them for being a prejudiced asshole, but I would not seek to - nor be allowed to - send them to prison over it.

Can I please reiterate; who is it who gets sent to prison for the crime of being found fuckable by bigots? Is it the bigot? No.

So you have a hierarchy here where a male with the PC of Gender Reassignment's needs are more significant than the female with the PC of Sex.

And you can't see a problem with that for women?

Or you can but the pesky PC of Sex matters less?

Right oh.

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2024 13:46

Oh I just got to the sex by deception part.

Oh my goodness. You went there. Your 'trans rights' even override consent.

Wow. You think you can win over women with that kind of argument. That's completely delusional, but you know that right?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 14:03

There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed

So Brexit is our fault now as well? Who knew we had so much influence!

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 14:09

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 13:17

You are literally striving to remove human rights legislation that has protected me from discrimination for almost my entire adult life. This is not an ambiguous matter, no matter how you choose to reframe it.

Human rights legislation exists that protects me from discrimination.

You are striving to remove it.

Are you not striving to remove it? Please do say if so.

I have a protected characteristic (more than one in fact). I am horrified by the idea that a person would actively discriminate against me over any protected characteristic that anyone might possess. This is not an unreasonable thing to be horrified by.

We fought for a very long time to allow people to be intimate with others who they find attractive. For their choice to be free and predicated only on mutual attraction regardless of what their chromosomes are.

A person who decided to send me to prison over a protected characteristic I possess and I am allowed, by human rights law, to keep confidential - which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably. It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

If I discovered a partner held discriminatory beliefs that horrify me then I would be horrified at them for being a prejudiced asshole, but I would not seek to - nor be allowed to - send them to prison over it.

Can I please reiterate; who is it who gets sent to prison for the crime of being found fuckable by bigots? Is it the bigot? No.

I think you do understand how abusive this situation is.

I think you understand but try very hard to moralise the horror away hence the wall of excuses and righteousness and accusations towards people who point out how this truly is a non-consensual act of sex.

Because, of this act of abuse through non-disclosure is acceptable, then non-consensual access to female single sex spaces? That becomes fully acceptable…

Seems to be an abuser’s charter right there.

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 14:15

I have had enthusiastically consensual sex with many people (unfortunately there have been some horrible traumatic times over the years where my consent was not enthusiastic nor clear, but that is another conversation entirely and another set of scars that I am very much not interested in reopening in front of people who are demonstrably hostile).

Of the people who did not violate my own consent, I had no way of knowing how many of them were bigots. There was a time not so long ago when most people were bigots, and there are a lot more 'stealth' bigots now. I have almost certainly had enthusiastically consensual sex with more than one stealth bigot in my life.

I have no protection from things people do not disclose to me. I could go to prison for the crime of what amounts to being sexually active while stealth.

My standard advice to young trans people intending to go stealth is 'don't fuck bigots or those even faintly vulnerable to bigoted ideologies; they can and will send you to prison and there is legal precedent supporting them doing so' with a side order of 'you can't know if someone is a bigot until they show you. Make sure the first time they show you isn't in court'. Schrodinger's bigot is something we have to factor into our daily lives.

Do you not see how fucked this is? Do you genuinely not see it?

Do you not see the issue with laws that exist to protect people from predatory behaviour becoming a way for bigots to brutalise minorities who hide from them - to the extent that we have to brief vulnerable young trans people who are trying to escape prejudice and persecution that actually they can't and can in fact be sent to prison for trying?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 14:17

My standard advice to young trans people intending to go stealth is 'don't fuck bigots or those even faintly vulnerable to bigoted ideologies; they can and will send you to prison and there is legal precedent supporting them doing so' with a side order of 'you can't know if someone is a bigot until they show you. Make sure the first time they show you isn't in court'. Schrodinger's bigot is something we have to factor into our daily lives.

Why are you referring to victims of sexual assault in this way?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 14:18

Do you understand that not believing in your ideology doesn't make someone a "bigot"? Nor does expecting not to have your consent overriden or your sexual orientation ignored.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 14:25

My standard advice to young trans people intending to go stealth is 'don't fuck bigots or those even faintly vulnerable to bigoted ideologies; they can and will send you to prison and there is legal precedent supporting them doing so' with a side order of 'you can't know if someone is a bigot until they show you. Make sure the first time they show you isn't in court'. Schrodinger's bigot is something we have to factor into our daily lives.

To clarify what Butterfly means here, 'stealth' means pretending to be the opposite sex and not disclosing what your sex is.

Butterfly suggests that anyone who wants to know what sex the person they are having sex with actually is, is a 'bigot'.

'Sex by deception' is a UK law. People can and have been convicted for misleading sexual partners about their sex.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-6-consent

Sexual Offences Act 2003.

'the Court of Appeal in Justine McNally v R [2013] EWCA Crim 1051 determined that “deception as to gender can vitiate consent” (paragraph 27).'

Rape and Sexual Offences - Chapter 6: Consent | The Crown Prosecution Service

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offences-chapter-6-consent

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 14:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 14:17

My standard advice to young trans people intending to go stealth is 'don't fuck bigots or those even faintly vulnerable to bigoted ideologies; they can and will send you to prison and there is legal precedent supporting them doing so' with a side order of 'you can't know if someone is a bigot until they show you. Make sure the first time they show you isn't in court'. Schrodinger's bigot is something we have to factor into our daily lives.

Why are you referring to victims of sexual assault in this way?

I am talking about enthusiastic consent between two or more adults, one of whom is not disclosing that they hold views which are hostile toward trans people or transness in general, and one of whom is not disclosing that they are trans.

This is not all that unlikely a situation; many trans people are not identifiable as trans, and many people with trans-hostile views are not identifiable as having trans-hostile views.

GailBlancheViola · 04/12/2024 14:28

The law deals with Sex by Deception and rightly so. It's simple to avoid falling foul of it - don't lie to people, deceive them or attempt to deceive them. As ever honesty is the best and only policy and from that consent will be either positively given, refused or withdrawn and consent can be withdrawn at whatever time and for whatever reason. No-one has nor should they have the right to deceive someone into sex and it is patently obvious why and where that leads.

Xiaoxiong · 04/12/2024 14:28

I could go to prison for the crime of what amounts to being sexually active while stealth.

Yes, because this is a crime. If you are stealth, the person you are sexually active with cannot consent, whether they are "bigots" or not.

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 14:28

No regular person "can and will send someone to prison".
They can report a crime, and if it's a sexual assault or rape then they're unlikely to see justice, let alone "prison" being factored into any part of it.

Anyway, you presumably know that and are trying to pretend otherwise. If honesty is so difficult that you're worried about committing being punished for crimes then perhaps have a look at your relationship with the truth.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 14:31

I am talking about enthusiastic consent between two or more adults, one of whom is not disclosing that they hold views which are hostile toward trans people or transness in general, and one of whom is not disclosing that they are trans.

It's got nothing to do with whether a person is "trans". That isn't something I personally consider meaningful. It has to do with their sex.

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 14:34

And this is why we advise younger trans adults intending to go stealth to avoid 'bigot' bad vibes; not only is there a very real direct risk of personal harm, but also a risk of prosecution from anyone seeking to punish them for being trans.

We just have to add them to the list of all the other bad vibes to learn to spot, which include all the ones that non-trans people also have to watch out for of course.

So yes, that's one of the many ways that trans people are discriminated against in this country despite ostensibly having a human right to privacy.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 14:36

People are not 'glory holes' detached from their bodies.

It's pretty gross to suggest that people should ever be deceived about the sex of their sexual partners. Or that this is to be expected, as one person's desire 'to allow people to be intimate with others who they find attractive.' should override other people's ability to give full, informed consent.

But it is instructive to find out that at the root of what Butterfly demands is a change to the Sexual Offences Act to avoid prosecution for Sex by Deception.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 14:37

Consent that isn't free and fully informed is not consent.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 14:38

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 14:15

I have had enthusiastically consensual sex with many people (unfortunately there have been some horrible traumatic times over the years where my consent was not enthusiastic nor clear, but that is another conversation entirely and another set of scars that I am very much not interested in reopening in front of people who are demonstrably hostile).

Of the people who did not violate my own consent, I had no way of knowing how many of them were bigots. There was a time not so long ago when most people were bigots, and there are a lot more 'stealth' bigots now. I have almost certainly had enthusiastically consensual sex with more than one stealth bigot in my life.

I have no protection from things people do not disclose to me. I could go to prison for the crime of what amounts to being sexually active while stealth.

My standard advice to young trans people intending to go stealth is 'don't fuck bigots or those even faintly vulnerable to bigoted ideologies; they can and will send you to prison and there is legal precedent supporting them doing so' with a side order of 'you can't know if someone is a bigot until they show you. Make sure the first time they show you isn't in court'. Schrodinger's bigot is something we have to factor into our daily lives.

Do you not see how fucked this is? Do you genuinely not see it?

Do you not see the issue with laws that exist to protect people from predatory behaviour becoming a way for bigots to brutalise minorities who hide from them - to the extent that we have to brief vulnerable young trans people who are trying to escape prejudice and persecution that actually they can't and can in fact be sent to prison for trying?

Sorry?

Do you or do you not tell people you are a male person before you engage in sex?

Do you or do you not counsel young people to fully disclose their sex (not their gender identity) to someone before engaging in sex acts?

It really is that simple. All this sparple about bigots is irrelevant and purely a distraction.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 14:39

Whoever said this was a men's sexual rights movement wasn't wrong.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 14:42

Fucking hell

It just gets worse and worse.

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 14:42

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 14:36

People are not 'glory holes' detached from their bodies.

It's pretty gross to suggest that people should ever be deceived about the sex of their sexual partners. Or that this is to be expected, as one person's desire 'to allow people to be intimate with others who they find attractive.' should override other people's ability to give full, informed consent.

But it is instructive to find out that at the root of what Butterfly demands is a change to the Sexual Offences Act to avoid prosecution for Sex by Deception.

Nah, just that having a legal precedent that is weaponisable against minority groups who are trying to escape persecution is really fucked up.

While the precedents were both from another era and involved very dubious behaviour I sure as fuck don't condone, they still exist and the effect they have on all trans people who go stealth is very real.

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