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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERFs are not the problem

497 replies

niadainud · 30/11/2024 21:20

AIBU to think that transwomen's beef should not be with so-called TERFs, but with men who rape women or who have sexual proclivities such as autogynaephilia?

It is not (imo) transphobic to want women-only spaces for a number of reasons, but if (some) men weren't predatory in one way or another then women would have nothing to worry about.

I realise this is a highly utopian way of looking at it, but it riles me enormously that it has somehow become socially unacceptable not to pretend a man in a wig and a dress is actually female. I was introduced to someone's "niece" recently and they had facial hair. It's just ridiculous.

I also think that "real" transwomen (i.e. those who have undergone surgery etc.) make things more difficult for themselves by adopting this very black-and-white stance. People like Blaire White are realists and seem to speak some sense about the issue but they're a tiny minority.

OP posts:
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lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2024 11:46

To put that into perspective, young children in the UK are technically banned from wearing non-stereotypical clothes

This is just complete and utter bollocks.

No one is banned from wearing anything.

My autistic daughter always pre-puberty wore boys clothes. CAMHS thought that meant she was a boy. She isn't.

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 12:16

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 09:24

Thank you for taking the time and providing an answer. I will likely come back look at these today in detail. However, it seems clear that much of what you have written involves single sex spaces and your demand that you be included as a male person in female single sex spaces.

And what you have called 'life saving treatment' elsewhere. Treatment that you have not yet shown evidence to support it improving the mental health of the majority of patients. Yet you have tried to discredit the Cass Report and have been clearly very upset that your personal interview with them did not give strong evidence to change the outcome of the report. We have dealt with this on numerous threads.

Unless you can provide us with the links to the evidence that does discredit the Cass findings and recommendations, you are merely now just advocating for people to be harmed.

Addressing single sex spaces.

-Pink and blue toilets a requirement since 2024
-EA2010 protections under threat
-NHS single sex facilities for trans people under threat

The reality is, your framing of female people wanting to have single sex spaces remain just that, single sex, as being an attack quite clearly signals that you have never understood that you should never have been using those spaces at all previously. And we can and I am sure will continue, to cycle around and around on that issue.

And if the European laws do not allow female people to have single sex spaces, then why should the EHRC be forced to lower the standard of rights for female people in that way? Just because the European law says it doesn't mean that it is a law that should be enacted here if female people are negatively impacted by it.

This though, 'Trans girls have, for reference, been banned from the Girls' Day School Trust since 2021'. We have had previous discussions about this. However, it really really is very clear now. You absolutely have no consideration for female children. At all. Yet, you pride yourself as being someone giving children and young people 'counsel' about gender. This comment about allowing male children to go to single sex female schools is a safeguarding red flag. It proves that you should be no where near any child or young person.

So to for your section on Sex while stealth is illegal.

What you are describing is a breach of consent. Similar to male access to female single sex spaces is a breach of 'consent' because those male people have not asked the users in the single sex space if they consent to you (general you) using it as a male person. The social contract to use female toilets was that it was limited to female people unless assisting a male child. It always was this until male people decided to change this.

If someone is not completely honest with a potential sex partner BEFORE intimacy about their sex, then it should be considered that full consent has not been given. I understand your dilemma here. However, it truly is a breach of consent.

So, in effect, by defending that people should be able to keep their sex private from sex partners, you are advocating for the removal of another person's consent for sex. I understand that you don't see it that way. However, I think we have established that just because you, personally, might not see something as it factually and materially is, doesn't remove the fact that it is material and objectively real and will abide despite your disbelief.

To be very blunt. You don't understand consent.

Trans people are protected in law from discrimination and granted reasonable provision to access services appropriate to them. This country was grudgingly forced to grant these decades ago because it was in breach of european human rights law and had to do so. There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed. We warned about this for years and years. We were told to shut up; that we were being hyperbolic, uncharitable and catastrophising over something that would never happen.

It happened. We left the EU. The triumphant crowing I read on here over it stands as testament to the truth. We detonated our economy and turned the term 'human rights' into a fascist dogwhistle so that we could go back to discriminating against and brutalising trans people. Why? To satisfy an ideology that cannot tolerate nuance or compassion; that allows no reasonable adjustment for lived reality; that exiles people from their own humanity due to their point of origin.

The European Court of Human Rights, created to ensure that the atrocities of the past remain firmly in the past, says I am allowed to use facilities appropriate for my acquired sex. That I am a woman. That I am, as a legal entity, female.

They did this decades ago, as I was becoming an adult. This is my life. These are my rights, enshrined in international human rights laws created to protect me from people like you, that you are actively striving to take away. You know full where this road leads.

Did Hillary Cass not say that trans and cis outcomes should be considered as equally valid, that medical transition is clearly appropriate for some young people and that she hopes that where there is a clear, clinical view that the medical pathway is best, they will still receive treatment?

There are multiple studies referenced by the Cass Report that make it clear there are psychological benefits from allowing people to transition. She acknowledged this while saying more research is needed into clinical safety alongside a cautious approach.

I don't believe she is an idiot. She knew from the many, many discussions she had with many, many subject matter experts that her findings would provide the pretext to push through a complete ban - it was literally being strategised both on public social media and behind closed doors for years - and that the exceptions were a technical weasel defence against the reality of the practical outcome. She is either a callous and irresponsible liar, or just irresponsible and ignorant of the consequences of her actions.

Why would I need to discredit her? She discredited herself when she lost sight of the ethical principles her profession holds itself to and published a report that she knew would do devastating harm to the very demographic she was advocating compassion and caution toward.

Backpedalling afterwards to cover her own back is abject cowardice. It is disgraceful that she was rewarded for detonating life-saving healthcare for one of the most vulnerable groups in society and then running from responsibility for the consequences.

wincarwoo · 04/12/2024 12:27

Butterfly "life-saving" is pure emotional manipulation.

Those with mental health issues are more susceptible to suicide and self-harm. This isn't a reason to give puberty blockers to kids who have been led on by adults that by not adhering to stereotypes they are in fact the opposite sex or they are born in the wrong body.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 12:34

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 12:16

Trans people are protected in law from discrimination and granted reasonable provision to access services appropriate to them. This country was grudgingly forced to grant these decades ago because it was in breach of european human rights law and had to do so. There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed. We warned about this for years and years. We were told to shut up; that we were being hyperbolic, uncharitable and catastrophising over something that would never happen.

It happened. We left the EU. The triumphant crowing I read on here over it stands as testament to the truth. We detonated our economy and turned the term 'human rights' into a fascist dogwhistle so that we could go back to discriminating against and brutalising trans people. Why? To satisfy an ideology that cannot tolerate nuance or compassion; that allows no reasonable adjustment for lived reality; that exiles people from their own humanity due to their point of origin.

The European Court of Human Rights, created to ensure that the atrocities of the past remain firmly in the past, says I am allowed to use facilities appropriate for my acquired sex. That I am a woman. That I am, as a legal entity, female.

They did this decades ago, as I was becoming an adult. This is my life. These are my rights, enshrined in international human rights laws created to protect me from people like you, that you are actively striving to take away. You know full where this road leads.

Did Hillary Cass not say that trans and cis outcomes should be considered as equally valid, that medical transition is clearly appropriate for some young people and that she hopes that where there is a clear, clinical view that the medical pathway is best, they will still receive treatment?

There are multiple studies referenced by the Cass Report that make it clear there are psychological benefits from allowing people to transition. She acknowledged this while saying more research is needed into clinical safety alongside a cautious approach.

I don't believe she is an idiot. She knew from the many, many discussions she had with many, many subject matter experts that her findings would provide the pretext to push through a complete ban - it was literally being strategised both on public social media and behind closed doors for years - and that the exceptions were a technical weasel defence against the reality of the practical outcome. She is either a callous and irresponsible liar, or just irresponsible and ignorant of the consequences of her actions.

Why would I need to discredit her? She discredited herself when she lost sight of the ethical principles her profession holds itself to and published a report that she knew would do devastating harm to the very demographic she was advocating compassion and caution toward.

Backpedalling afterwards to cover her own back is abject cowardice. It is disgraceful that she was rewarded for detonating life-saving healthcare for one of the most vulnerable groups in society and then running from responsibility for the consequences.

I feel most of this has been addressed but your starting statement was :

"Trans people are protected in law from discrimination and granted reasonable provision to access services appropriate to them."

And this is only correct to provide, as you say, 'reasonable provision'. It is going through Supreme Court right now though. Did you watch it? The KC from EHRC did say that already under the act exceptions can be enacted legitimately.

Male people who want to access female single sex spaces can be excluded legitimately.

I am sure you know about legitimate and illegitimate discrimination because I am reasonably sure that we have discussed in with you before.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 12:35

Trans people are protected in law from discrimination

Yes.

and granted reasonable provision to access services appropriate to them

Citation, please.

There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed

Absolute nonsense.

The European Court of Human Rights, created to ensure that the atrocities of the past remain firmly in the past, says I am allowed to use facilities appropriate for my acquired sex. That I am a woman. That I am, as a legal entity, female.

You're saying you using the toilet set out for your sex is an 'atrocity'?

Where does the ECHR say that men using women's toilets is a human right?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2024 12:37

I never understand why anyone thinks that insisting that women must be compelled to undress in front of random men claiming to be women is a vote winner. And as for criticising Dame Hilary Cass because exceptionally mentally vulnerable children are finally being protected from the belief that their developing bodies are flawed but a sex change will cure them?
And then repeatedly arguing this on a feminist board.
😂
(I know it's not a laughing matter as the grim impact of all this on women and children is finally well documented. But it shows the power of this movement to upend the social contract, remove women's rights and erode fundamental safeguarding children principles)

lifeturnsonadime · 04/12/2024 12:38

This insistence that young, often autistic, children need 'healthcare' because they don't wear the right clothes literally makes me feel sick.

My daughter wore boys clothes for years, she's autistic. Thank goodness she wasn't brainwashed into believing the correct response to her clothing preference (largely due to sensory issues co-morbid to autism) meant she should modify her body and is really a boy.

Now post puberty she most definitely is a girl and is now starting to tolerate the feeling of 'girls' cut clothes more.

There is nothing cruel about letting children grown up in their own healthy bodies. We are our bodies after all.

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 12:50

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 12:16

Trans people are protected in law from discrimination and granted reasonable provision to access services appropriate to them. This country was grudgingly forced to grant these decades ago because it was in breach of european human rights law and had to do so. There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed. We warned about this for years and years. We were told to shut up; that we were being hyperbolic, uncharitable and catastrophising over something that would never happen.

It happened. We left the EU. The triumphant crowing I read on here over it stands as testament to the truth. We detonated our economy and turned the term 'human rights' into a fascist dogwhistle so that we could go back to discriminating against and brutalising trans people. Why? To satisfy an ideology that cannot tolerate nuance or compassion; that allows no reasonable adjustment for lived reality; that exiles people from their own humanity due to their point of origin.

The European Court of Human Rights, created to ensure that the atrocities of the past remain firmly in the past, says I am allowed to use facilities appropriate for my acquired sex. That I am a woman. That I am, as a legal entity, female.

They did this decades ago, as I was becoming an adult. This is my life. These are my rights, enshrined in international human rights laws created to protect me from people like you, that you are actively striving to take away. You know full where this road leads.

Did Hillary Cass not say that trans and cis outcomes should be considered as equally valid, that medical transition is clearly appropriate for some young people and that she hopes that where there is a clear, clinical view that the medical pathway is best, they will still receive treatment?

There are multiple studies referenced by the Cass Report that make it clear there are psychological benefits from allowing people to transition. She acknowledged this while saying more research is needed into clinical safety alongside a cautious approach.

I don't believe she is an idiot. She knew from the many, many discussions she had with many, many subject matter experts that her findings would provide the pretext to push through a complete ban - it was literally being strategised both on public social media and behind closed doors for years - and that the exceptions were a technical weasel defence against the reality of the practical outcome. She is either a callous and irresponsible liar, or just irresponsible and ignorant of the consequences of her actions.

Why would I need to discredit her? She discredited herself when she lost sight of the ethical principles her profession holds itself to and published a report that she knew would do devastating harm to the very demographic she was advocating compassion and caution toward.

Backpedalling afterwards to cover her own back is abject cowardice. It is disgraceful that she was rewarded for detonating life-saving healthcare for one of the most vulnerable groups in society and then running from responsibility for the consequences.

I believe I have told YOU that you were hyperbolic and catastrophising. Because any reasonable person reading your posts would come to that conclusion.

But anyway: 'These are my rights, enshrined in international human rights laws created to protect me from people like you, that you are actively striving to take away. You know full where this road leads.'

I am actively striving to ensure that the laws and policies that are made to protect the needs of female people are fit for purpose and provide equitable and safe opportunities for female people.

That you constantly frame this as me taking away your human rights is you not accepting that as a male person, you should never have been accessing those provisions. Yet you did. Can you put a name to a group of people who act as if a space is theirs when it is not? You frame it as me taking away your human rights. It is not me. The polling shows that the majority of the UK agree that male people should not be accessing the provisions set up to be female only.

And you have not addressed my comments about consent at all.

Tell us, what would you advise a woman to do if she was having a sexual relationship with someone that withheld information that would change her from being consenting to a definite non-consenting partner?

Would you point out that the person who is withholding that information has such little respect for her that they simply didn't care about her consent?

Would you consider that relationship healthy and positive?

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 12:53

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 12:35

Trans people are protected in law from discrimination

Yes.

and granted reasonable provision to access services appropriate to them

Citation, please.

There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed

Absolute nonsense.

The European Court of Human Rights, created to ensure that the atrocities of the past remain firmly in the past, says I am allowed to use facilities appropriate for my acquired sex. That I am a woman. That I am, as a legal entity, female.

You're saying you using the toilet set out for your sex is an 'atrocity'?

Where does the ECHR say that men using women's toilets is a human right?

If I remember, providing toilets for use is a human right. Safety is a human right. But allowing a group of male people into female single sex spaces because they have a particular philosophical belief is not a specified human right.

And it is certainly not an 'atrocity'.

Waitwhat23 · 04/12/2024 12:58

I think most of the nonsense points Butterfly made have been well addressed by other posters but I have to highlight this particularly egregious point -

'There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed.'

I cannot state how much this is utter nonsense. Just utter bilge.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2024 13:05

Goodness:
"There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed".

I don't recall FWR leading the charge for Brexit, let alone being particularly influential in that whole debate? Is it possible that this poster so dislikes this board / the women who post on here, that they're fantasising / making things up?

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 13:05

"We were told to shut up; that we were being hyperbolic, uncharitable and catastrophising over something that would never happen."

By the way. Posting in a style that is using cognitive distortions that are emotionally manipulative, such as hyperbole and catastrophising, to then use those to support making false claims such as this above, is entirely manipulative in itself.

GailBlancheViola · 04/12/2024 13:10

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2024 13:05

Goodness:
"There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed".

I don't recall FWR leading the charge for Brexit, let alone being particularly influential in that whole debate? Is it possible that this poster so dislikes this board / the women who post on here, that they're fantasising / making things up?

As far as I recall the FWR board was very much against the UK leaving the EU.

As to your second point I think it is all part and parcel of the re-writing of history aspect that is inherent in GI.

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 13:17

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 12:50

I believe I have told YOU that you were hyperbolic and catastrophising. Because any reasonable person reading your posts would come to that conclusion.

But anyway: 'These are my rights, enshrined in international human rights laws created to protect me from people like you, that you are actively striving to take away. You know full where this road leads.'

I am actively striving to ensure that the laws and policies that are made to protect the needs of female people are fit for purpose and provide equitable and safe opportunities for female people.

That you constantly frame this as me taking away your human rights is you not accepting that as a male person, you should never have been accessing those provisions. Yet you did. Can you put a name to a group of people who act as if a space is theirs when it is not? You frame it as me taking away your human rights. It is not me. The polling shows that the majority of the UK agree that male people should not be accessing the provisions set up to be female only.

And you have not addressed my comments about consent at all.

Tell us, what would you advise a woman to do if she was having a sexual relationship with someone that withheld information that would change her from being consenting to a definite non-consenting partner?

Would you point out that the person who is withholding that information has such little respect for her that they simply didn't care about her consent?

Would you consider that relationship healthy and positive?

You are literally striving to remove human rights legislation that has protected me from discrimination for almost my entire adult life. This is not an ambiguous matter, no matter how you choose to reframe it.

Human rights legislation exists that protects me from discrimination.

You are striving to remove it.

Are you not striving to remove it? Please do say if so.

I have a protected characteristic (more than one in fact). I am horrified by the idea that a person would actively discriminate against me over any protected characteristic that anyone might possess. This is not an unreasonable thing to be horrified by.

We fought for a very long time to allow people to be intimate with others who they find attractive. For their choice to be free and predicated only on mutual attraction regardless of what their chromosomes are.

A person who decided to send me to prison over a protected characteristic I possess and I am allowed, by human rights law, to keep confidential - which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably. It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

If I discovered a partner held discriminatory beliefs that horrify me then I would be horrified at them for being a prejudiced asshole, but I would not seek to - nor be allowed to - send them to prison over it.

Can I please reiterate; who is it who gets sent to prison for the crime of being found fuckable by bigots? Is it the bigot? No.

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 13:22

butterfly did you see that I pointed out you were mistaken on several of your points from last night? Are you not relieved to hear that some of the things you thought we were fighting against, you'd got wrong?

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 13:28

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/12/2024 13:05

Goodness:
"There has been a consistent movement ever since, heavily centred on this board, to force the country to leave the EU in order to allow these basic human rights to be removed".

I don't recall FWR leading the charge for Brexit, let alone being particularly influential in that whole debate? Is it possible that this poster so dislikes this board / the women who post on here, that they're fantasising / making things up?

I assume BH thinks "Remainers" are those who wanted Brexit. Can't really argue with topsy turvy. I imagine they are not from the UK as the use of English is a bit off.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:29

We fought for a very long time to allow people to be intimate with others who they find attractive.

Holy fuck.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:30

Oh, okay. I'm glad you continued and mentioned consent in the next paragraph, Butterfly.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:31

I'll assume you just phrased that first sentence really badly because you are busy being horrified.

As am I, tbh.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:32

This is talking about 'sex by deception', whereby a person deceives a sexual partner as to their sex.

A person who decided to send me to prison over a protected characteristic I possess and I am allowed, by human rights law, to keep confidential - which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably. It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 04/12/2024 13:35

A person who decided to send me to prison over a protected characteristic I possess and I am allowed, by human rights law, to keep confidential - which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably. It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

This is nonsensical mental gymnastics. Your fringe ideology does not trump other people's rights to not have their consent violated.

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:36

It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

Most people would say that knowledge of a person's sex certainly does have an effect on their decision making. I mean, I don't have any polling data to confirm that but I would hazard a rough guess that almost all people want to know what sex a person is before they decide to consent to sex or not.

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 13:36

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:32

This is talking about 'sex by deception', whereby a person deceives a sexual partner as to their sex.

A person who decided to send me to prison over a protected characteristic I possess and I am allowed, by human rights law, to keep confidential - which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably. It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

Wtf. Is this something that actually happened or more topsy turvy? Shock

Helleofabore · 04/12/2024 13:36

ButterflyHatched · 04/12/2024 13:17

You are literally striving to remove human rights legislation that has protected me from discrimination for almost my entire adult life. This is not an ambiguous matter, no matter how you choose to reframe it.

Human rights legislation exists that protects me from discrimination.

You are striving to remove it.

Are you not striving to remove it? Please do say if so.

I have a protected characteristic (more than one in fact). I am horrified by the idea that a person would actively discriminate against me over any protected characteristic that anyone might possess. This is not an unreasonable thing to be horrified by.

We fought for a very long time to allow people to be intimate with others who they find attractive. For their choice to be free and predicated only on mutual attraction regardless of what their chromosomes are.

A person who decided to send me to prison over a protected characteristic I possess and I am allowed, by human rights law, to keep confidential - which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably. It is punishing me for something that hurts nobody and has no effect on their decision making or capacity to consent.

If I discovered a partner held discriminatory beliefs that horrify me then I would be horrified at them for being a prejudiced asshole, but I would not seek to - nor be allowed to - send them to prison over it.

Can I please reiterate; who is it who gets sent to prison for the crime of being found fuckable by bigots? Is it the bigot? No.

Thank you for being so clear that you don’t care about consent unless it is your own.

You have been very illustrative.

which in no way shape or form harms them, had no influence on their decision making or clear attraction and clear and enthusiastic consent, and only retroactively decided to punish me for, is acting completely unreasonably.”

If they don’t know that you are a male person, they have not given the consent you have claimed they have. And just as bad, you claim that this does not harm them.

And you are someone proudly counselling children and young people.

And you think you are righteous and on the right side of history?

ArabellaScott · 04/12/2024 13:37

popeydokey · 04/12/2024 13:36

Wtf. Is this something that actually happened or more topsy turvy? Shock

I assume that it's hypothetical.