Is the Kink Scene a Cult? Interesting Podcast

[BelaLugosisThread]

Was I In a Cult UK Kink Scene episode

Latest episodes of the 'Was I In A Cult?' Podcast features a guest who gives a shocking account of the UK Kink Scene. She states the scene acts as a cover for coercive control and abuse and gives a horrifying example of attempts to link 'dark age players' to "Minor Attracted Persons"/ AKA paedophiles

From the comments it appears "Kink shaming" is the new hate crime as there's quite a pile on in response to these episodes. The guest provides a convincing feminist critique of this subculture and I found her story alarming. Yet it appears only 'lived experience' that fits a certain narrative is authentic as she is widely dismissed as phobic and bigoted.

Worth a listen

Low boundaries, desensitisation, power dynamics, abuse taken and given, obscuring language "breath play", acting as if there's some kind of information everyone else "vanilla" is missing out on or not smart enough to "get". Persuasion...secrets... ultimate goals... one of us, not one of us, hardcore, extreme... nothing is ever enough...

It's soooo culty and soooo shady. No wonder gender ideology rose so quickly in the shadows.

"Don't shame my kink" = "don't mention my sickness."

This has been a really illuminating thread. Grateful to everyone who has contributed.

I sort of get the defensiveness of those justifying the kink scene. Is the same with porn; so many handwaivers because they want to continue to consume it. 'Don't yuk my yum' is essentially 'leave me alone to crack on and do what i want to do. I prioritise this over other concerns'

The podcast intrigued me because of the journey the guest went on in pursuit of an outlet for authentic female sexuality. It sounded like her desire to exercise dominance was an attempt to subvert patriarchal power structures. I can relate to that as a former 90s libfem!

Plus the world is crap enough and life is short so personally I have little shade for hedonism per se. Fill your boots! Obviously re caveats of harm.

Humans are complex and messy; sexual fantasies can be dark and disturbing. I recall reading books that surveyed and studied women's fantasies and rape fantasies were prevalent. Demonstrably a response to rape culture. Taking a fear, threat or negative past experience/ trauma and having some control over it. Subversion territory again.

I think v few people are interested in policing peoples' fantasies. Is more about having a critical framework and awareness in order to navigate the issues/ opportunities thrown up by them. Whether they are

• The fantasy/ kink that stays in your own head (wonder how many supposedly 'vanillas' are here?)
• The fantasy/ kink that you share with a trusted partner (again unknown how many 'nillas!)
• The fantasy/ kink that is played out publicly

I think people gravitate to the kink scene superficially looking for:
Justification
Reassurance
Exhibitionism
Education: earnest desire to learn how to better do things, which might be motivated by safety concerns
Opportunity
A partner

In essence, the scene is a collective of individuals prioritising self interest. The defensiveness comes from that. I also get that if your thing is dressing up with a touch of bondage you hardly want to be equated with absolute wrong uns.

However I am in agreement with the podcast guest and all the posters here questioning and calling out the scene as inherently unhealthy and dangerous.

Now this, is someone who has been involved with the scene!

The guy with all the child and bestiality porn on his USB was one of the Manchester organisers. I remember meeting him and finding him creepy asf. What's even more depressing, is he was only outed due to a falling out over drugs and or money with a popular Leeds domme at the time. A domme who later was 'dissapeared' due to unmentioned in public transgressions. Her domme business was destroyed in the process and I've no idea what happened to her.

No one seemed to ask at the time why he was taking this USB out and about, and if he might have been giving it to someone. That's a question that would suggest he felt safe to do that, and could find other child abusers pretty easily in the scene.

The impression I got was it was a private falling out that went public, and really makes one wonder about how much is covered up, or chased out when the equilibrium of the scenes dance of predator and prey is threatened.

Former dominant woman who abused men, calling in for duty!

On one hand, patriarchy I think skews any attempt to reclaim sexuality as a woman. If you'd actually listened to the podcast you'd know this is covered.

I found it very hard to find men who were not terribly manipulative and with a lot of unresolved issues around shame, not coping with the expectations of toxic masculinity etc. When I spent time with pro-dommes, the abusive and entitled messages they'd get from such men where appalling. I came to the conclusion they were just as sexist, possibly more so than dominant men. Kinda more sneaky about it. Also so porn sick. OMG , every single one of them that I met, porn sick.

Personally, I think I was attracted to the role due to trauma and a desire to subvert sexual norms. I left with more trauma and didn't subvert a thing. I also think I was wrong to cause harm, however unintended and however wrapped up in consent it was, to men with 'submissive' desires.

I just think power games destroy true sexual intimacy. Only exception i can think of may be switches. A type kinda looked down on by many in the scene as not having picked a side.

I continue to work on healing myself, a task that is much easier now my time in that subculture is behind me.

OMG. This after exiting the scene I sought out therapy and I recall having these cringe convos when selecting a therapist, expecting them to have a huge issue with the kink. They didn't at all, as, trained therapists.

What's important is a match and understanding what the therapist had been trained in. The idea I needed a kink aware therapist now just comes across as so culty! But then the scene relies on the idea that trauma can be treated through kink. I bet it's that, that is the elephant in the room. It's like, think about any other trauma, like war trauma. At no point is part of the treatment, physically re-enacting the trauma. Why is playing out sexual trauma the exception? Because it's not. The hard truth is its framed as an exception, so men who find advise sexy, can be abusive.

Interesting covo.

Every time a kink chat happens the kinks immediately appear to desperately tell us all how completely cool and consensual it all is. And how much better than vanilla. And how it's absolutely not from a place of trauma and it's a completely healthy sexuality.

It's not though, is it? Power play and the desire to inflict or accept pain do not come from a healthy place. They just don't, and your constant dismissive posts @ByGentleFatball to anyone who has issues with the scene just makes the point. You're not advocating, you're making it look as bad as it is.

Calling a poster who posted in good faith a junkie?

That's not a good look for you or the scene.

FWIW, every single person I know that's been involved with kink was not in a good place.

And it was generally women, moreso young women, who had a background of trauma, and it never helped them.

I've been following this since the beginning, listened to the podcast and read carefully everyone's opinions and experiences.

I am extremely interested in kink from a feminist perspective, having only in the past couple of years realising I have kinks. I haven't made an opinion up about it yet, but I do want to add my thoughts. I don't want to conflate the kink "scene" and the ease of access to abusing individuals, with my own personal kink and sex preferences and choices in private. How I go about wanting to behave or fulfil my desires is up to me. So far, I have only dipped my toe in the scene publicly in the past year, and it has always (for me) been a very safe space to be, but I have witnessed some very unsafe practices.

My interpretation of kink is multifaceted. There is the power dynamic, which needs to be agreed with full consent (this includes whether you're under the influence of drugs/alcohol/ knowing you are physically and mentally well enough to engage and consent in the practices of your choice). A safe play partner also has to have awareness of those aspects so they are sure you are fully consenting. And vice versa. But ultimately your boundaries lie with yourself.

By having kinks like sub/dom, being tied up with rope etc, means giving up a part of your power and that can be liberating, having less choice. Like a restaurant menu with too many options can be overwhelming, having limited choices causes less anxiety, and transferred in a sexual sense this may be cause more pleasure.

Kink for me is a form of free play, a thing for doing without an necessary outcome, within set boundaries, not necessarily "rules". However, you may have your own hardline boundaries that stop the play, or soft ones that are fun to try out and see if you like it not. I then reflect afterwards and say, yep, not for me. I like to explore this side of myself, but I am not defined by it.

Lastly, humans have similar experiences for enjoyment, it's just that kink has crossed this into an added layer of sexual pleasure. What is the difference between contact sports (rugby, say) and getting hurt and damaged, hitting the wall in running a marathon, and being spanked in a sexual context? What is the difference between people wanting to be exhibitionist on reality TV, or being exhibitionist in a sexual context? Voyeurism as a person watching the car crash TV of love island or big brother, and voyeurism of watching someone else have sex.

I get the feeling that a lot of kinks, especially the scene, and unsafe practices are a result of the patriarchy and porn. That this is what you're supposed to like. Just like wealthy success could look like owning a yatch. Do you actually want the yatch? Or do you think you do and want to signal to the rest of society you've made it because you have a yatch?

Anyway, I'm still learning. Keep adding to the thread! I could be completely wrong in my thinking and am open to my mind being changed.

Are you joking? Of course worse things can happen at a kink venue compared to other venues. It's so much easier to coherse people infront of others, peer pressure ect, not wanting to appear "boring" or for a victim to continue with a scene their not comfortable with.... because they dont want to make a scene themselves

Lots of people wont report a kink assault as they worry they wont be believed or will be told it's their own fault due to their kink

I agree that predators will still seek people out anywhere but people are at more risk in kink venues or the scene. They are and your silly to say that their not

Full disclosure, I used to quite like pissing on men, but I knew it was an unhealthy behaviour that came from anger, I was really annoyed with men, because I'd been raped, I was so angry that I wanted them sexually but they had also caused me harm. It was a fuck you. It wasn't healthy, It wasn't a good thing. The dynamic was not OK.

I don't do it anymore, I've been married to a fabulous man for 20 years and my sexuality is no longer based around harm. It's now a mutually lovely thing.

Thank you for sharing. You give me hope I can find a loving an intimate relationship after kink.

Something to bear in mind as well, is that many of us have had a long and varied sex life, many different experiences that would be regarded as kink by some.

Many of us have tried things and not liked them, gotten in over our heads, skirted the edges of danger and then luckily survived it, but in some cases have been sexually assaulted at those edges.

A lot of us have explored what men are into out of curiosity. We have male friends who confide in us, we have explored porn sites to see what is going on, we've explored through books, art and film other perspectives. We discussed sex endlessly when we were younger.

And then there comes a point where you can see quite clearly that some boundaries are being pushed too far by males who have the physical power to harm us, persuading us that it's part of our own exploration and then before you know it, you've been hurt. Physically, mentally, emotionally.

We aren't naive. The judgement comes from hard earned experience, not pearl clutching. Many of us will be having lots of sex and have lots of fun things we do within that remit, but that doesn't involve the extremes of Fetlife or screwing multiple partners etc.

I often think if all women researched what the various categories of porn are, watched some of the things that men have favourited, looked at Fetlife etc, the gender madness would never have gotten so far. What was the quote about not getting in the way of a man and his fetish?

Would love @ByGentleFatball to come back to me on my questions from earlier.

Do you honestly think that me believing that men who are sexually aroused by strangling women (even with the woman's consent) are more likely to be dangerous than the average man, is because I'm worried my partner will cheat on me because he might have a kink I don't share?

Do you not believe that a man sexually aroused by strangling women (even with their consent) is more likely than the average man to be dangerous to women?

Many things are encompassed by 'kink', some of which are fairly harmless and some of which are seriously dangerous and risky.

While some practises in and of themselves may not be risky, perhaps the overall dynamic and context of the 'scene' could itself be the risky thing.

I am very wary now of claims like 'kinky people talk much more about consent therefore its safe' and 'the kink scene is uniquely open'.

I think it's bollocks. There is censure of anyone asking questions, having doubts. A tendency to close rank. Othering of the outgroup.

Those are all things that are what I'd call 'cultish' behaviour, although kink isn't a cult.

And lastly so much abuse is about coercion and control. The focus being on the practises may be a bit of a red herring. The powerplay is the thing.

And I'm minded again of narcs and abusers learning very well the language of therapists to better gaslight targets and manipulate their victims.

Wise words Arabella. Also worth remembering that said narcs & abusers get quite a thrill from dominating discussions in places where women gather. Usually outing their intentions by denying women agency and the right to boundaries.

Just wanted to say thanks @ByGentleFatball for sticking up for the kink community. I have similar observations and experiences to yours, although interested to hear about the podcaster.

🙈🙈🙈🙈 cant believe you've read some of the things people have shared, their own experiences ect and your thanking someone for "sticking up" for the scene?

Your a dangerous person

The links to the goth scene reminds me of Marilyn Manson (Brian Warner). Everyone thought he was so lovely, just misunderstood, just likes pushing boundaries blah blah until actually it finally comes out he is an absolute vile creepy, controlling abuser.

There's a lot of abusers operating in plain sight and the BDSM and kink scene is where they can get their kicks and play out their twisted fantasies without any legal repercussions.

I'm sure women in the kink scene think they're consenting. But are they consenting to providing a fantasy for men who might go on to abuse/rape if they weren't getting their needs met through the kink scene...

Hear about the podcaster, not listen to the podcast. Noted.

Please listen to the podcast and do come back with thoughts. The whole thread is supposed to be about the podcast and the points raised.

Neil Gaiman!

I recall reading books that surveyed and studied women's fantasies and rape fantasies were prevalent. Demonstrably a response to rape culture. Taking a fear, threat or negative past experience/ trauma and having some control over it. Subversion territory again.

I think that there can also be a simple physiological element to certain things, including rape fantasy.

A lot of things go on in the body during sexual arousal, and heightening the chemical responses in the body and brain can create more intensity. Ways to do that can be creating a fear response, or certain types of pain (which we typically don't feel as strongly when aroused as we would normally.) There's also some reason to think that seeing and hearing others having sex creates a sort of sympathetic response.

So it's not that surprising that people have learned that these things happen and maybe try and pursue them. Totally apart from trauma.

But most of us also know that there need to be boundaries because there are negative things that can come of that kind of activity, and society has often made taboos or social limits for the same reason. The fact that they can be exploitative is a major element of that.

What about dominant women?

All good. I don't even see it as defending. It's just taking facts about what goes on..