Is the Kink Scene a Cult? Interesting Podcast

[BelaLugosisThread]

Was I In a Cult UK Kink Scene episode

Latest episodes of the 'Was I In A Cult?' Podcast features a guest who gives a shocking account of the UK Kink Scene. She states the scene acts as a cover for coercive control and abuse and gives a horrifying example of attempts to link 'dark age players' to "Minor Attracted Persons"/ AKA paedophiles

From the comments it appears "Kink shaming" is the new hate crime as there's quite a pile on in response to these episodes. The guest provides a convincing feminist critique of this subculture and I found her story alarming. Yet it appears only 'lived experience' that fits a certain narrative is authentic as she is widely dismissed as phobic and bigoted.

Worth a listen

This is such a funny comment in light of what the podcast guest says about claims she was 'ousted'

I completely agree with all of this, with one caveat: I must insist on the correct term, "strangle", in place of the euphemism "choke", which invisibilises the perpetrator/strangler. After all, it was the Boston Strangler, not the Boston Choker.

Indeed, arousal from strangling others is some serial killer shit. NO man who gets off on that is safe to be around. Full stop.

I went to the Torture Garden and Submission. The experiences I described happened at TG. Out of interest, why did you decide it was more likely to be a 'squat rave'? I clearly said otherwise.

who in the their right mind would want to have sex with a man who gets hard at the idea of choking a woman?

@WandsOut I agree with so much of what you’re saying. The problem with this question is that it stops well short. If, as a female, choking is your kink, then you’re asking your partner to a risk of killing you. Who in their right mind would accept that level of responsibility to facilitate someone’s orgasm?

how do those dynamics change when the parties are F on M, F on F or M on M? When there’s topping from the bottom?

Bringing a feminist perspective to bear is so important, but the inherent assumption that the woman is always the person being exploited is a weakness. That women are at particular risk of exploitation, and to a greater statistical degree is not in dispute. My point is that it’s complex, and nuanced.

Sweeping away the issue by categorising anyone who is sexually aroused by unconventional stimuli as mentally ill, is not helpful. We tried that before as a society. We know that you can’t therapy the gay away now. We also know that women generally do experience physiological arousal at the prospect and actual experience of rape (likely an evolutionary protective mechanism against injury) that doesn’t mean they secretly enjoy it. It’s harmful to pretend that there’s only one acceptable route to sexual satisfaction.

There can be any number of things that can be arousing, that really isn't in dispute.

In fact, probably almost anything can be a turn on. And there are certain kinds of physical sensations, even unpleasant ones, that can cause physical responses that can facilitate arousal.

That doesn't mean those things are actually a good idea to persue.

Yes, shoving a fist up your ass can be a turn on. But you know what - it's a really really bad idea. No one would encourage someone they care about to do it, the potential downsides are not only serious, they are pretty likely, and may not be possible to repair effectively. (Plus - ass surgery is excruciating, has a long healing period, and doesn't always work.)

Society and individuals don't discourage kink just because they are boring vanilla people, they discourage it because it can be physically damaging and sets people down a road that tends to lead to escalation.

People do not need to chase every possibility for a heightened orgasm.

The idea that therapy is the answer is very, very naive. It’s a rare therapist who will use anything but an affirmative model with a transitioning young adult because of the high risk of losing their licence and livelihood. Therapy isn’t a neutral arbitrator or some sort of higher power that exists above the chaos of the world. It’s subject to the same socio-cultural and political pressures as everything else. Therapy is highly encouraged in kink communities, but always kink aware/ kink positive therapists. I don’t need to spell out the problem with that.

We absolutely need to listen to the voices of dissent but if we’re not also listening to voices from within the world of kink, then we’re part of the pressure that keeps it underground. Dismissing everyone as mentally ill, is lazy and perpetuates harm.

The TG in Manchester was full of drunk high people when I went a year or 2 or go. It was so packed one girl fainted too.

Oh and BTW, many kinky venues, especially outside the UK, actively prohibit alcohol and drugs during play

They "say" they prohibit it. I've been to many where their fairly open about drugs and dont mind anyone being drunk, no one bats an eyelid..... I went to Townhouse s few years ago, the group of friends i met up with, one guy ordered 2 double vodkas at the bar and I said in front of the man serving him, arnt you driving? He said he would be okay and the man still server him.

In the liverpool scene several of the workers take cocaine whilst behind the bar, some of the men who run the events make jokes online about raping women ect.

Was it the GBS or somthing like that, the man who ran that in another country but got women from all over the world to attend, they got drunk and he, like so many other men in charge. Abused several women

Theres loads of drinking and drugs involved. Loads. Every single time I'd been I was very drunk, took drugs,

I will not take part in the scene anymore because of how dangerous it actually is.

Victims who speak up about things happening to them are somtimes turned against by the scene for daring to bring light to what happens

Dont forget all the sleazy photographers who lure in newbies and then sexually assault them under the guise of art. Theres a well known one in Blackpool who has been banned from all areas because of what hes done to several women

In saying "And who in the their right mind would want to have sex with a man who gets hard at the idea of choking a woman?"

I'm literally saying it's mental illness to want a man to strangle you.

Because it is. Who would want a man to strangle them or get turned on by a man strangling them unless they are walking close to the line of death?

It's not helpful to pretend otherwise. To have a man, who is physically stronger, close his hands around your throat to the point where you cannot breathe... all the whilst fucking you...

It's a form of torture.

And the kind of man who would strangle a woman and get hard, isn't a safe man to be alone with.

I've had friends who have said they enjoyed this. They were not mentally well. It can be packaged any way you like but it's dangerous, predatory and not something most of us would want our daughters to be going through. And if they were, we would wonder what dark places their mind has been that they can feel turned on by something so deadly.

Dismissing strangulation as a kink perpetuates death.

@Namechanhedforthe1000thtime

"Dont forget all the sleazy photographers who lure in newbies and then sexually assault them under the guise of art. Theres a well known one in Blackpool who has been banned from all areas because of what hes done to several women"

I worked with male photographers - there so many of them like this I lost track. Was the victim of one who used to hang around the alternative scene and it turned into being locked in a house with him whilst he was high on meth showing me photographs of all his "artistic work", boasting about using disabled models for kink photos as proof of what a great guy he was, and telling me not to be boring. Sexually assaulted me. I had to talk fast to get out of there. That was thirty years ago.

Around that time there was also a neighbour couple I knew who were into kink. Any guesses what happened one night when I was the last party guest to leave? Asked if I would take photos of them. I refused. Sexually assaulted again, by the bloke, in front of his wife, like it was something normal to do. Again being told not to be boring. Not to be vanilla.

I've been to the Torture Garden. The men were the same creatures you find in any cess pit. Only they were completely catered to and enabled and fawned over. The clothes may be fancier and the education levels may be academic, but the leering and entitlement is the same. The alternative clubs had a crossover with the kink scene. The scarification and piercings were having their peak moment. It was all staged as being the next level of audacity and daring. For a scene that's constantly lying about safety and consent, I was constantly touched up despite not wearing anything particularly overtly revealing.

Uni girls and faux arty men. Same old same old.

Suburban scene now I would imagine to be older, a little wobblier, hairier arsed, with someone ending up hoovering up the nachos and looking bored whilst the other three have sex.

It's all so... unsexy.

@Kinked We tried that before as a society. We know that you can’t therapy the gay away now.

This comparison is deeply offensive and very inappropriate.

a) Being gay and having gay sex harms no one. Love and actual sex between consenting adults harms no one. On the other hand, the majority of forms of BDSM are inherently harmful and/or abusive.

b) Homosexual and bisexual behaviour is completely natural and found in varying degrees among a large number of animal and bird species. As I said before, I don't think you'll find any non-human animals that are sexually aroused by being strangled or beaten up.

That sounds more like the scene I knew.

I would like to know why @ByGentleFatball sought to minimise my experiences by saying I went to a "squat rave", when I specifically said I went to a well known BDSM & fetish club. Did they not want to believe that their scene is capable of crossing and destroying boundaries? Or did they assume that, because I was a troubled young woman with addiction issues, my account was untrue and I mistook a 'squat rave' for a famous club night?

I gave an honest account of some episodes in a very difficult and dark time in my life and I don't appreciate having my experiences dismissed and minimised.

Because TG is ran by predators who only let skinny white women in their venue. Literally everyone in kink knows that. As is verbatim and LAM. It's ran by men who like young (barely) women. This is what I mean about the scene. You need to know what you're doing and where you're going and who you're hanging out with. LAM is one of the biggest events ran by the shadiest guy ever.

I don't want to be.insulting, really, but it sounds like you were a semi junkie if you're the drug taking one hanging out in a dodgy crowd. They just happened to be kinky.

What about a lesbian who wants her female partner to do that? A man who wants his male partner to do that? Or a man like mine who wants his female partner to do it? What about women like me who get off at consensual breath play with my male partners? As in I do the strangling?

Are we all mentally ill?

What you have to remember is that studies have shown that most anti kink people fear that their partners will desire sexual activities they can't give them. So they think by shaming kinky people, it will deter their partners from seeking out kinky partners and leaving them. That's why you see all the irrational fear and lashing out.

A good few kink events now have banned sex so....

Yes she was for being mentally unstable, deceitful and spiteful.

What about women who get off on doing it?

I fucking hate the kink scene. After 20 years of happy marriage my exH got into it and was completely enveloped in it. I said fine do what you want but I dont want to be involved.
He insisted I get into it, I refused and he walked away. Said he felt embarrassed to have a vanilla wife. His comete personality changed. Wallked out. Never spoke to me again. I havent seen or spoken to him for 7 years.

it's dangerous, predatory and not something most of us would want our daughters to be going through

I'm just emphasising this @WandsOut - I think it can be difficult for us to have distance from our own experiences, as they have been an integral part of us, but thinking about it in this way really clarifies the issue for me. I would be horrified if some of the things that happened to me had happened to my DD.

This is supposed to be a defense of the kink scene.

Instructive.

Yes, it's reflective of wider society. It isn't safer. It isn't more dangerous.

This sounds like something out of the "Coercive Control Handbook"!
Knowing that harming others, strangling and abusing women is wrong is not an "irrational fear" . It's a rational, logical response to abusive adults (usually men) with an inability to self regulate who dismiss the rights of women to have boundaries and to say no.
Interesting that most of the posters who have talked about their experiences describe youth, alcohol and drugs as featuring in their experiences - thus rendering them vulnerable with limited ability to give consent in the face of the creepy abusive men they encountered on this kink scene that you are so desperately promoting.

Ok. You've dismissed the person on the podcast as being one of those difficult trauma cases. You've now dismissed another commentator brave enough to share their experiences as a 'semi-junkie'.

This is called an 'ad hominem' logical fallacy, where you attack the person making the argument, not the argument. An equivalent would be dismissing all of Foucault's work, because he was a paedophile with a penchant for young Moroccan boys. A lot of his work informs the queer theory that underpins the weird political nature of kink. Never hear how past getting brought up though. I wonder why.

Also, it's a really nasty thing to do, attacking the character of people you've never met, people who are sharing their experiences of problem behaviour and abuse. Intentionally hurtful. I thought you were into consent for pain? Clearly not. I thought the scene cared about safety? Clearly not. I don't think I've seen such denial outside of the early days of the Catholic priest scandals.

I'm not convinced you've actually listened to the podcast either. Just riffing on the fact it's about BDSM in order to grandstand your own opinion that it's all fine and everyone with a bad experience, it's actually their fault. An absolute classic of blaming the victim. The BDSM cult conditioned you well.

I've read their posts! Listen, we live in a dangerous world. What can happen in kink venues isn't more or less horrific than what happens in any venues. What happens in kinky relationships isn't more horrific than what happens in vanilla relationships. If you're a person who is vulnerable, drug dependent and has attachment issues, predators will seek you out.

Kink isn't going to protect you from that. But nor is not going to kink venues.