Is the Kink Scene a Cult? Interesting Podcast

[BelaLugosisThread]

Was I In a Cult UK Kink Scene episode

Latest episodes of the 'Was I In A Cult?' Podcast features a guest who gives a shocking account of the UK Kink Scene. She states the scene acts as a cover for coercive control and abuse and gives a horrifying example of attempts to link 'dark age players' to "Minor Attracted Persons"/ AKA paedophiles

From the comments it appears "Kink shaming" is the new hate crime as there's quite a pile on in response to these episodes. The guest provides a convincing feminist critique of this subculture and I found her story alarming. Yet it appears only 'lived experience' that fits a certain narrative is authentic as she is widely dismissed as phobic and bigoted.

Worth a listen

I am finding @ByGentleFatball 's contributions informative. I don't see how we can find solutions that protect the vulnerable, while allowing as much personal freedom as possible, if we stay in the echo chamber

Many years ago I had a cash in hand gig at Torture Garden (London fetish night club) where I dressed up as a Moonie and performed fake mass wedding ceremonies.

Amusingly, my statement above is not the cult-iest comment on this thread:

Will deffo listen to the podcast, thanks OP!

Idly wonders whether the number of porn soaked men (and some women) trying to justify kink goes some way to explain why they have such problems in respecting women's boundaries and right to say no?

Well, they are. But most BDSM seems to be about power relationships and a lot of them are unhealthy. I can see where this thread is heading so I think I will leave.

A lot of people are threatened by kink because they fear it causing sexual incompatibility in their own relationships. It doesn't bother me at all. I'm used to people assuming women can't make autonomous decisions.

Oh and BTW, many kinky venues, especially outside the UK, actively prohibit alcohol and drugs during play. I have no idea where that other poster used to go in England, but I literally don't know anywhere you won't get thrown out for taking drugs or being too drunk.

One of the major debates in kink circles is about drinking (even 1 drink) and playing. I really don't know where that poster went but it doesn't sound like a formal kink venue..more like a squat rave with a few kinky people.

A lot of relationships are unhealthy regardless. A lot of people literally cannot leave because they are emotionally and financially stuck in an unhappy and even abusive relationship. One of the major components of kinky relationships is that you do things like discuss how you will break up. You think about things like a "fuck off fund" in advance. There is a lot more practicilality alongside the romance.

Not everyone does it, and that's why kink relationships end up as shitty as vanilla ones. But that's the point, having a kinky dynamic doesn't put you at more risk of abuse. Relationships are high risk for abuse anyway.

Fatball

I really think that you should delete your post, which names the woman interviewed. She spoke under condition of anonymity, it's not right for you to out her, you said you didn't want to be outed.

Her name is in the link given by the OP

ellenback21 · Today 09:40

Her name is in the link given by the OP

In that case, my apologies, Fatball!

Someone trying to join the kink community has no way of telling if a group is a 'real' kink group or a 'fake' one that allows alcohol and abuse, allows abusers to pose as doms, and fails to screen out vulnerable people.

The 'no true Scotsman' argument doesn't cut it when the stakes are this high. Its a problem that needs fixing, and pretending that peoples objections are misguided doesn't inspire confidence.

@SinnerBoy The male podcast presenter said in episode 2 that "Amelia King" is a pseudonym as the guest was too scared to give their real name and needed to preserve anonymity.
Yet from this the above poster knows it is some nutter who uses that name on the scene. Even recognises her voice

Can't really imagine someone wanting anonymity from fallout using a moniker they used on the scene so I take that as BS. Much like the rest of the offerings from them.

Interesting to read differing accounts of the kink scene though. Clearly it isn't one homogeneous entity. Some aspects will have a party vibe, others prescribe sobriety

I thought it was a very even handed podcast, I'm a regular listener and they made it clear it doesn't strictly fall within the cult definition, but that many of the behaviours found within the BDSM world can be also be found in cults. Certainly I think she was right to point out the levels of vulnerability involved.
Plus she made some really interesting points about how certain kinks have become more prevalent in recent years.

@Flustration I am inclined to agree with you. Particularly this:
"I noticed more generally that vulnerable women seem to be drawn to the community and that these women appear to be deemed credible enough to consent but not always credible enough to be listened to. I admit I may be over reaching on that one"

I think you've nailed it there. Not over reaching. That's the crux. That's what makes it most cult like imo. It betrays the in/ out dynamic of the subculture. Also the exploitation.

I've dipped in and out of the kink scene. I'm a lesbian so my experience will differ slightly.

At university, 95% of people there were die hard liberals, most were queer, and everyone was very keen on consent. Anyone even remotely coercive/abusive was booted out. There were plenty of male subs/female doms. All the women there would have considered themselves feminists. Kink done properly encourages very open communication and very very clear boundaries, which let's be honest, is something a lot of vanilla couples never discuss. I can honestly say kink has made me very sure of my sexual preferences. I know exactly what consent looks like. I'm very forward with my preferences, and have no shame in communicating them. A lot of my vanilla hetero friends struggle to communicate to their boyfriends if sex is poor/they're doing something they don't like. There are also plenty of taboo kinks in the kink community.

Tbh, a lot of the submissive women I met were very confident outside of a kink setting. Some people use kink as a way to process trauma, but honestly, it's mostly just preferences 🤷 For some people there will be a patriarchal element to it, and the desire to be dominated by masculinity, but it's not always that deep, lol. I'm personally very submissive. I like being hit/spanked/caned/humiliated etc. I don't like it due to any particular reason/due to trauma. It's just what I like. It makes me feel good, lol. I'm highly anxious irl and it's just a good way to let go of control and relax. Also, domme women are just hot AF, and I love the way it subverts gender stereotypes. Nothing as sexy as a woman telling me what to do.

In the non uni world, there are a lot more creepy men around tbh. Most men do Dom and not sub I would say. There is almost certainly a patriarchal element to this and lots of power play involved. You have to be very careful who you play with. But it's still similar in that anyone doing something they shouldn't is quickly dealt with if you have decent people running events. As with anywhere else, there will be some women who are very vulnerable attending, but the vast majority just like what they like. Because the kink community is so open, imo it's easier to see when your being abused.

Thanks for sharing @Ladamesansmerci.
I'm interested in what lesbian spaces on the scene are like. How have you found it? The guest on the podcast did differentiate between gay subcultures and the general scene. Did you feel more part of the general scene or more a distinct lesbian BDSM subculture?

"I don't think the consent model works terribly well when applied to traumatised women with poor boundaries"

@GiveMeSpanakopita I think this is so true and insightful, not just with regards to kink but more generally too.

My experiences are well out of date and I was never into Kink/Fetish personally, I’m just someone with quite a few friends who did/do circus style performances at kink events (my connection is from the tattoo/body piercing scene and the more music orientated/high fashion club scene eg Kinky Gerlinky) so I was often roped in to assist with a performances and model for the latex/rubber catwalk shows as cash in hand work.

What I saw was little discussion re: consent and masses of excess in drinking and party drugs, especially amongst organisers/club promoters and their immediate social groups.
I was always struck by the differences between the typical women involved (often young and extremely beautiful with masses of creativity in clothing and hair/make up) and the men (often older, far less attractive, creepy, with much less effort in their appearance, eg some just wearing ladies knickers and their normal work shoes, or topless in leather trousers).

I went to a couple of women-only events which were much better without the creepy man element (also much smaller scale).

I’m mostly talking about the biggest, most prestigious London events of the time (ones that could afford to pay performers) so Submission, TG, Skin Two’s Rubber Ball (& I’m vaguely recalling one called Fantastic or something similar?) maybe the smaller, suburban events are less decadent-partying more sensible-consent? Doubt the crowd would be less creepy tho!

When I later moved up North the local kinksters invited me to quite a few social gatherings/big events but I presume they just mistook me for someone who was actually into the scene rather than someone who is scene adjacent-by-circumstance!

@Ladamesansmerci I'm highly anxious irl and it's just a good way to let go of control and relax.

...Maybe try yoga and meditation? 🤔

I am also highly anxious. But I just don't get these try-hard justifications... Do you think any non-human animals like being hit or otherwise hurt? There is nothing "natural" or instinctual about masochism. So yes, I do believe that there is always something deeper going on, and that these responses are conditioned and learned. Frankly, needing to beaten up to "relax" during sex is in itself indicative of sexual dysfunction, if not trauma.

I wonder if any of the people involved in the "kink" cult have ever experienced truly intense and mutual sexual desire for another person - the kind that literally makes your knees weak. There is nothing like it; it's utterly intoxicating. Humans have been writing about it as long as we have been able to write, and surely telling stories about it for as long as we have been able to talk. Now that's natural and instinctual.

IMO, if you need all those bells and whistles - or whips and chains - and a rulebook to have satisfying sex, you're doing it wrong. It's just sad, really. It reminds me of the alienated and jaded vision of (in)humanity in David Cronenberg's Crash: rules and tools and things. Humans alienated from their own bodies and souls.

But, being from the scene why cant you see how dangerous what you've just said is?

Just because you might not of seen or witnessed things doesnt mean they havnt happened. And I'm dubious to believe that you have actually seen what goes on because it seems like your claiming not much does?

Look at the man who ran one of the clubs or meet ups ( cant remember which ) he was arrested after he left a USB full of child porn at one of the venues. The woman who runs townhouse posted online a few years ago calling a victim of rape a rat because it was one of her friends who was accused of rape.

Loads of people have been banned from the scene over the years for their bad behaviour. Theres a couple online who go around meeting old men for sex with the woman dressed up as a school girl while her partner watches 🤢

I cant think of the event name now but a club was shut down a year ago or so because one of the runners had sexually assaulted several women

And these are the people in charge!

You may find that women's safety is rarely considered by those deep into porn / sex involving hurting others. It's why there's such a preponderance of porn addled men involved in denying women's rights to privacy / safety & dignity from men - you only have to look at the profiles of some of the leading transactivists to see this in action.

It's always depressing to see these views being promoted on a feminist board of mainly women - but at least it gives women a heads up about who best to avoid.

Fascinating thread. I haven’t listened to the podcast but I’m genuinely surprised at the number of people rushing to defend the kink scene.

(First of all, it’s not one church, but I’ll use the same short hand here)

Creeps abound and it’s a hunting ground for predators and lazy rapists. There are some strong pockets of people who look out for the vulnerable, much like the relationships board on mumsnet functions here, and having benefitted from that kindness and solid guidance when I was finding my feet, while I stay well away from the real life scene, I’m still very active anonymously online.

I’m not going to argue about the rights or wrongs of being kinky, with people who will never even try to understand. Safe, sane and consensual is the minimum standard.
But I’m definitely not in the tolerant camp- there are practices that are unacceptable, and I will bloody well judge, and call out abuse, and encourage measures to support mental health, and safe practices,

Years ago when it was underground, there was a justified wariness of outside judgement but the defensiveness is misplaced now that kink is so acceptable in the mainstream. It’s not ok that practices that were once carefully negotiated fetishes are commonplace and casual, when they carry risk of physical and emotional trauma.

The community was better equipped to police itself internally when it was underground, fringe and personal but SM has blown the gates wide open and we have to call out the problems. it’s important now more than ever.

I hate the way that people who have vanilla sex are referred to in superior way by certain names on the scene as 'nillas' as if they are somehow inferior.

Also agree with @ByGentleFatball that there is a 'problem with mentally ill, emotionally unstable people gravitating towards the scene and people romanticising mental illness in like an Emo type way.' Reading profiles, writings and the timelines of many members of a certain kink site can be concerning, hilarious, scary, implausible, staggering and very, very worrying all at the same time. And these are quite often the 'names' on the scene.

I must admit I do go there for laughs sometimes - the men who are going to poly meet ups are 99% of the time single. How does that work? They can't even find one partner never mind two 😀the same names have been turning up for years...

It is a cesspit - especially the age play stuff which I find more distrubing that the toilet slaves!

"I think some of us might actually be part of the scene to some extent so we know what is fearmongering, and what are real concerns.

Many of these outsiders conflate issues to the point that their criticism has no validity. "

Sounding a bit culty I have to say.

I know several women involved in kink over the years. Same story every time. One was 26 when she was boasting about needing a nappy after fisting. Another proudly shared her ratings on a kink hookup site as some kind of validation. Another would jump on to any discussions about choking with "don't shame my kink" etc etc

Later as we got older all of them spoke with regret about pushing themselves to worse and worse extremes in order to satisfy the men they were with. One in particular had self inflicted injuries from trying to "go harder" on her particular fetish that her boyfriend introduced her to.

You might say these aren't true believers in the cenobite faith, but we hear that argument a lot levelled at detransitioners. "You weren't really into it if now you have regrets, you weren't true trans..."

Plus the constant shaming of "vanilla" sex whilst demanding not to be shamed for increasingly dangerous sexual practices.

There's a lot of disconnect, disembodied desire and a real avoidance of intimacy.

Saying there are safe words and consent, that the BDSM scene is safer than the "normal" scene ... you could argue no one can consent to being choked. Certainly the lies about there being safe ways to choke someone need to be investigated. And the mainstreaming of kink in the media leading to young women feeling pressure into it. In a scene where there are so many unsafe practices, how far does it have to go for the safe words to be used? And how often are they ignored, I doubt men on the scene are any different to men who aren't from the point of view of being capable of causing great physical, emotional and sexual harm.

On a slight tangent - at what point did "don't shame my kink" become the narrative to the point where it's used to shut down valid concerns? That's a bit culty really.

And who in the their right mind would want to have sex with a man who gets hard at the idea of choking a woman?

It's all so very grim, and if this is how women who speak out about the scene are treated... it seems pretty cult like.

Completely agree
The damage done to women on an individual and group level by the normalising of perverted sexual desires is enormous.
Every woman who decides to be one of the “cool” girls by saying they like being strangled or mock raped etc is enabling misogyny and sexual violence by giving men the excuse that we like it.
Anybody male or female who genuinely needs such things to get sexual satisfaction needs psychological help not mainstream acceptance.
Kink shamer and proud.