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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Blue Sky

302 replies

AndCoronets · 15/11/2024 01:00

What do you make of it? I was all for a break from the cesspit that it is TwiX, but I'm getting dubious vibes. Set up my account, searched for a few of the accounts which I follow on Twitter, got to Kathleen Stock and all I found was transphobe, blah blah type posts. Depressing.

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Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/11/2024 11:39

Very typical though @PermanentTemporary

TrumptonsFireEngine · 21/11/2024 14:13

Are trans people, allies and neutral parties who dislike seeing transphobia really worse than Andrew Tate

Different sides of the same coin, both extreme misogynists.

Chersfrozenface · 21/11/2024 14:18

The chief executive of Bluesky doesn't know - or didn't until five minutes ago - the correct age limit for users on the platform.

"While speaking to BBC Radio 5 Live's Breakfast programme, Jay Graber wrongly said you needed to be 18 to use Bluesky, when the actual age limit is 13."

She also said Bluesky doesn't try to verify the identification of the user to ensure people are not lying when signing up.

And she thinks there's no harassment on the platform.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c238y83l48jo

Brefugee · 21/11/2024 14:19

Christinapple · 21/11/2024 11:30

Are trans people, allies and neutral parties who dislike seeing transphobia really worse than Andrew Tate and all the extreme misogynists (there's a chap on Twitter who said "your body my choice" to women, how lovely), racists and porn spambots that infest Twitter now?

i haven't made any comparisons, but FWIW they are as bad as each other. TRA and Andrew Tate and his ilk are often horribly misgynistic and i don't have any truck with any of them.

AT and his ilk don't show up on my Twix feed unless rt by someone i follow. As i and others have said: if you don't look at For You (which is horribly manipulated) and stick to "following" - and make sure you know what you'Re following, you're fine on TWIX.

And again: the TRA definition of transphobia isn't a reliable indication that actual transphobia (of which i see very little) has actually happened. On looking it often turns out to be of the "adult human female" or "women's rights are human rights" variety. Which is not transphobia.

Brefugee · 21/11/2024 14:22

PermanentTemporary · 21/11/2024 11:34

Andrew Tate is a loathsome criminal who rapes and exploits women and is inexplicably influential to young men. Emma Hilton is a developmental biologist who posts about her field of expertise. At the moment, BlueSky users are treating them both as equally unacceptable. That's both quite unsettling and very unappealing.

although interesting to see Mx Apple put TRAs and Andrew Tate in the same bracket.

Now i am not for one minute saying they are the same, but if i can be called Right Wing for saying "adult human female" we can lump all misogynists together, right?

DeanElderberry · 21/11/2024 14:28

I'd have thought that Andrew Tate and TRAs are pretty much the same, all about men's rights being paramount and women existing only to serve men's needs and whims.

Christinapple · 21/11/2024 14:36

TrumptonsFireEngine · 21/11/2024 14:13

Are trans people, allies and neutral parties who dislike seeing transphobia really worse than Andrew Tate

Different sides of the same coin, both extreme misogynists.

But you're willing to tolerate Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes and all the other misogynists along with all the racists and spambots on Twitter just because Musk lets you say what you want about trans people (which most major internet forums won't let you do)?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/11/2024 14:43

The mute button is a thing.

DeanElderberry · 21/11/2024 14:43

I've never wanted to say anything about trans people on Twitter and I've never seen anything from Tate, Fuentes, spambots or racists (well, there are some odd types who turn up on Irish threads to denounce us all, but luckily they have no power). To me it's a pleasant place populated by clever, witty people and charming animals.

Whereas bluesky was all vicious misogyny and anime porn.

TrumptonsFireEngine · 21/11/2024 14:47

Christinapple · 21/11/2024 14:36

But you're willing to tolerate Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes and all the other misogynists along with all the racists and spambots on Twitter just because Musk lets you say what you want about trans people (which most major internet forums won't let you do)?

My X thread has pretty pictures of countryside, birds and old buildings. Never seen a post from Andrew Tate. Presumably my algorithm hasn’t led to him like yours has.

Brefugee · 21/11/2024 14:57

Christinapple · 21/11/2024 14:36

But you're willing to tolerate Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes and all the other misogynists along with all the racists and spambots on Twitter just because Musk lets you say what you want about trans people (which most major internet forums won't let you do)?

since you clearly don't read anything anyone says: plenty of us don't get any of that twaddle because we know how to curate our own twitter feed. Very occasionally i will look at the For You. Even less often i will look out some tweets that people are talking about. that is the only time i see stuff about AT and his ilk. Or the TRAs. Or promininent Trans activists.

Bluesky doesn't work like that.

Brefugee · 21/11/2024 14:59

the worst things i usually see on Twix are from Sheffield United "fans" when they have played Wednesday or something like that.

I get a lot of cats, nature, birds (Carl Bovis, everyone, he is fab) and things like that. It's fab. oh and lots and lots and lots of feminists. Loads of them.

EasternStandard · 21/11/2024 15:04

TrumptonsFireEngine · 21/11/2024 14:47

My X thread has pretty pictures of countryside, birds and old buildings. Never seen a post from Andrew Tate. Presumably my algorithm hasn’t led to him like yours has.

This is a good point, not everyone will be looking at the same thing

DeanElderberry · 21/11/2024 15:12

Presumably Twitter algorithms, like stuff that turns up on google searches, works on the good old 'who smelt it, dealt it' principle, but bluesky's anime and misogyny was waiting for me on day one, laid out as a welcome mat.

UtopiaPlanitia · 21/11/2024 15:15

Brefugee · 21/11/2024 14:57

since you clearly don't read anything anyone says: plenty of us don't get any of that twaddle because we know how to curate our own twitter feed. Very occasionally i will look at the For You. Even less often i will look out some tweets that people are talking about. that is the only time i see stuff about AT and his ilk. Or the TRAs. Or promininent Trans activists.

Bluesky doesn't work like that.

since you clearly don't read anything anyone says

I agree, it’s frustrating when a poster is stuck on ‘broadcast only’ mode because it forestalls a decent discussion.

Brefugee · 21/11/2024 15:33

EasternStandard · 21/11/2024 15:04

This is a good point, not everyone will be looking at the same thing

this is one of the issues that people have when talking about SM. They often assume that their own experience is the universal experience. And it reminds me of the people (we see it a lot on here) who want to be able to tell people when and how they should be allowed to post on their own SM.

it's like those people who post in Site Stuff that MN is perverted because they are getting ads for dildos or something (not an actual example) because they don't understand how algorithms work.

It always has been possible to have a positive Twix experience without seeing any of the shite. You can mute particular words and you can mute or block accounts that post the things you don't want to see. Heck you can even mute Musk if you like.

For me: i use fb to post things as a sort of diary, and to keep in touch with people I only contact there (and the groups i'm in). I use Instagram to post pictures of things i make, i use Twix for all sorts of things (mostly feminism and football, but i do look at cats and things). Bluesky - my personal jury is still out, but i think it might be for the fun stuff like cats and birds.

ETA: agree with @UtopiaPlanitia when a station is set to broadcast only and the noise to signal ratio is weak, i tend to whizz past and not really take much of it in. Because i know i have read it all before.

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2024 16:15

Christinapple · 21/11/2024 14:36

But you're willing to tolerate Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes and all the other misogynists along with all the racists and spambots on Twitter just because Musk lets you say what you want about trans people (which most major internet forums won't let you do)?

I have spoken about my issues with censors before. It generally doesn't work (except if you use it for a very narrow very definition issue with socially agreed illegal issues where there is broad consensus) and it hands uncontrolled power to others. Which isn't helpful either as it has consequences in its own right.

The trouble with censorship is you elevate the status of 'banned issues' if you don't handle it well. Think Frankie Goes To Hollywood as a great example.

I find that I don't I'm bothered by Tate followers on my twitter feed because I don't follow them and I don't tweet. I use twitter as a read only thing. Mainly because I know what twats are on the internet and why children shouldn't be on the internet and why critical thinking skills should be something encouraged by schools as an essential lifeskill.

I don't think that censorship necessarily solves the problem. That's the point. All it achieves is a game of whack a mole for those who are determined anyway.

Unless you have legal back up (which doesn't necessarily require police intervention) it's kinda pointless.

The riots earlier this year are proving interesting. Just over a 1000 charges have been brought. It's been reported today that 99 of those have been online offensives so I can see there being increasing awareness that online conduct is still subject to the law in the UK.

That's not going to solve the issue elsewhere though. So if you use any non UK based social media you are going to run into potential issues. You'll note my choice of preferred social media where I participate isn't us based.

The other issue with going too heavy handed with censorship is you drive dark web communities which I think are altogether more concerning as there is even less scrutiny and management.

I don't think there's an ideal solution here. I accept that the internet is what it is and that following historical precedent of technological change in communication it's still in its 'wide West phase'. This will fairly naturally settle down over time as the imbalances of power and debates over public acceptability of behaviour on the internet mature.

I've been on this web thing as part of communities for 26 years now. I know they go phrases as part of a life cycle. They change and evolve. They have a period of infancy of naïvety and innocent, go through almost a 'wild teen phase' and then sort of grow up. Musk's takeover initiated a new cultural phase.

I have to say that I'm genuinely not seeing more crap than I was seeing pre-Musk. There was huge amounts of 'not nice' stuff pre-Musk so I think it's disengenous to say that Musk taking over has led to racism. Racism has always been a problem on twitter. I wish it wasn't the case, but I also don't think you get rid of racism by being authoritarian and just 'banning it'. I think the idea you can is naive.

I have previously played an online group which was social media based. There were a number of individuals who cheated by setting up over a thousand accounts. The game owners (who we got to know) had an impossible task. They couldn't delete fake accounts quicker than fake accounts were created. They couldn't develop and maintain the game and have more time than the cheats had on their hands. It was an important lesson for me; if people want to do it, they will do. Upon the revelation, the community in the end split into those who no longer wished to participate as it ruined it and those who still wanted to play and found ways around it (if you have that many accounts, you can't actually play them all at the same time, and it becomes apparent fairly quickly which are the key problems accounts so they get focused on). Those with the skill and determination ultimately shone through the drivel.

Going back to twitter, twitter also reflects society. And society isn't always nice and does have racism. I don't think racism is ok in any way, but I also think that if you have a debate in which everyone is free to express views, a certain degree of that is going to include bad shit. Otherwise you have almost an elitest community which does reflect society and deliberately shuts out people. That doesn't end well either because it creates resentment, hostility and conflict in its own way. You reach public consensus by inclusion of all (including the baddies) and you 'progressiveness' can not be achieved without this process - otherwise it requires unnatural intervention from an authority. It's about contact and communication being used well and effectively rather than relying on the blunt instrument of censorship. Authoritarianism never wins hearts and minds.

I note that abandoning twitter, is somewhat perversely an admission that there is no intention or desire to try and win hearts and minds - that means 'progress' is a false state based merely on who hold power. This is all about understanding how liberalism works and how you make effective long term sustainable change last. The Trans agenda provides a good example of how not to do things.

I think part of the problem is that effective change and progress takes a long time. And in an impatient insta generation there simply isn't this understanding of patience so instead people are looking to 'quick fixes' which don't work.

If you want to see the world as it is, you can't have a really harsh censorship policy. If you want to have a world view divorced from reality and only reflects your values then there are other choices available. But this isn't necessarily healthy either. It's not 'safe' in real terms. It's creating its own issues.

To sum up, I think it's impossible to navigate 'correctly' because there is no 'correct' was to do things. There's way that work and each online space has its own positives and negatives. Some of which, people don't necessarily want to acknowledge.

I've pondered the question over censorship since 1996 - my thoughts predate twitter by 'quite a long time'.

I'm still not convinced by censorship as an ultimate solution to the problem - as much as I really hate certain behaviours.

(My caveat here that needs to be stressed is 'except if you use it for a very narrow very definition issue with socially agreed illegal issues where there is broad consensus'. An example of that would be child sexual abuse and images of abuse. And ironically this is where Bluesky, by their own admission currently finding themselves - having to prioritise these cases over and above others anyway. I note also that illegal activity tends to move from older established communities and technology to newer ones as the users / owners / law enforcement is behind the curve there and they move on as the above wise up as the community matures. This means that BlueSky is still in a period of 'naivety' which also isn't necessarily a good thing either. The idea that it's a 'nicer place' may expose people to trusting others too much...

RedToothBrush · 21/11/2024 16:17

And yes, you fucking asked for my thoughts on that so I hope you bloody well actually read them rather than just go down the usual stupid good v evil brain fart dismissal.

MalagaNights · 22/11/2024 08:01

Christinapple · 21/11/2024 14:36

But you're willing to tolerate Andrew Tate, Nick Fuentes and all the other misogynists along with all the racists and spambots on Twitter just because Musk lets you say what you want about trans people (which most major internet forums won't let you do)?

Yes I'm quite willing to tolerate Andrew Tate, being called Cis, and generally allow idiots to say what they want in order to have the right to say what I believe to be true.

If that's the deal I'll take it.

RedToothBrush · 22/11/2024 11:43

Still waiting for an in-depth adult conversation about this and the issues and limitations of censorship.

lcakethereforeIam · 22/11/2024 11:53

An article about this in Spiked by Gareth Roberts

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/11/22/bluesky-is-hell-on-earth/

What a great advert for your own site – the place is full of informers and child molesters. Grasses galore and nonces by the score – roll up, roll up!

Fwiw, I think creating their own space is a great idea. Should be used more widely.

Bluesky is hell on Earth

The ‘nice’ version of Twitter is a breeding ground for status-craving sociopaths and thin-skinned snitches.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/11/22/bluesky-is-hell-on-earth

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/11/2024 12:00

Yes I'm quite willing to tolerate Andrew Tate, being called Cis, and generally allow idiots to say what they want in order to have the right to say what I believe to be true.

Me too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/11/2024 12:02

I also came here to post that @lcakethereforeIam - Gareth is brilliant.

The idea has emerged that social media, and X in particular, encourages political extremes. This argument would carry more water if the extremes of what I suppose we still have to call ‘the left’ weren’t baked in across Western institutions. These supposed sensibles and grown-ups are exponents of far, far nuttier things than anything that, say, Nigel Farage has ever, or could ever, cook up. These are people so nuts that they have made Donald Trump seem like a shining beacon of decorum and sanity.
Anybody who self-IDs as a kind, nice person on the right side of history is almost always a status-craving sociopath who will say anything, tolerate anything, to stay in their tribe. Men can literally take over a breastfeeding charity to satisfy their fetish for babies sucking at their nipples – as was exposed earlier this weekek_ – and the ‘kind’ people will say nothing for fear of status loss.^

WarriorN · 22/11/2024 13:48

The man who made threats to JK on bluesky getting a delightful roasting on Twitter.

Blue Sky
Blue Sky
Brefugee · 22/11/2024 14:33

and if i understand correctly, despite having all his details on his twitter profile, is moaning about her "doxxing" him.

god they are idiots