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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
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35
334bu · 11/11/2024 14:22

Screenshots

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity
The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity
colddays · 11/11/2024 14:33

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 23:31

I don't doubt that there are plenty of die-hards who have gone all-in. Riley Gaines posted a recent example of a wilful blindness that exists

https://x.com/Riley_Gaines_/status/1855115295230152824

However, it now seems clear even to the Americans that it's a vote-loser more so than at any point in the last 5 years.

I hope the momentum keeps up.

That guy! ' I am not going to sit here and listen to this transphobia'., if I were the host I would have told him he was free to get up and leave the table then. The arrogance of the man. And note how the host favours that shouty angry man's feelings, not the right of the other man to express his own views.

That is the attitude that loses the democrats votes.

Great look by the way, white man shouting down a black man for stating reality.

Appalonia · 11/11/2024 14:39

It's incredible how much the conversation has shifted, from #nodebate a few years ago, with women including myself, getting kicked off Twitter, for simply saying a man is a man, to TRUMP (!) stating he will end gender ideology. I still can't get over the shock of that tbh. Elon Musk buying Twitter has had a huge impact IMO, as it allowed us to have the conversation and show unmediated clips of what was happening. ( his recent interview with Joe Rogan is a good watch, as he explains why he bought Twitter ).

If all you saw was in the MSM you wouldn't have had much of a clue as to what was happening as The Guardian, BBC, C4 etc either ignored it or reported in it in a very biased way. So it's not really surprising that someone like Alistair Campbell doesn't have a clue what's going on!

colddays · 11/11/2024 14:41

And what are on earth is this ' tiny number of people' argument meant to achieve?

Even if we took it as true, you are still saying a tiny number of males, matter more than the tiny number of women affected. You are still being misogynistic at your core. I'm aghast that arrogant superior men like him can make this argument and not realise that they are being openly misogynistic.

And its not true that is only a tiny number of women being affected. One male in sport affects far more than one woman. A male who comes first, pushes down the rankings every woman who then comes after him. He pushes off the team the woman who never got on because of him. He affects every woman who has to get changed in the same space as him and he affects every woman who sees this and realises that her sport and her ambitions and her achievements are publicly being regarded as less important than what a man wants.

Its far, far wider than one man taking one woman's place. And even that is misogynistic.

WhatterySquash · 11/11/2024 14:45

I'm very disappointed in Alastair Cambpell. I'm not his no 1 fan but I thought he had a brain and a keen understanding of bullshit. I thought he'd quickly get his head around how gender ideology makes idiots of politicians and lefties.

Malcolm Tucker wouldn't have stood for it!

WhatterySquash · 11/11/2024 14:50

Yes that "tiny number" argument baffles me too. They don't say that about doping in sports do they? "Oh it's not many people really, just a tiny number. Why can't you just be kind and let them play/win?" If one person commits fraud and pretends to be a surgeon we don't say "well it's very rare you know, I don't know why you're so bothered by it. Be kind."

Of course it's far from a tiny number in reality but even if it was - how is that an argument?

dottiehens · 11/11/2024 15:00

ElizaMulvil · 11/11/2024 00:34

The Communist Party doesn't think men can become/be women btw.

Ok but I rather die than be siding with a communist party.

Ilovecashews · 11/11/2024 15:02

On x

Ilovecashews · 11/11/2024 15:02

Ah bother, it doesn’t show

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2024 15:04

WhatterySquash · 11/11/2024 14:45

I'm very disappointed in Alastair Cambpell. I'm not his no 1 fan but I thought he had a brain and a keen understanding of bullshit. I thought he'd quickly get his head around how gender ideology makes idiots of politicians and lefties.

Malcolm Tucker wouldn't have stood for it!

Yes, he's not the instinctive political operator he seems to think he is. Tony Blair understands the issue, though - and he's quietly been warning Labour about it for years.

GailBlancheViola · 11/11/2024 15:06

Great look by the way, white man shouting down a black man for stating reality.

It really was, wasn't it.

I go out, come back and find all you fabulous women totally on fire and taking down with intelligence and evidence the nonsense. Bravo.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2024 15:13

WhatterySquash · 11/11/2024 14:45

I'm very disappointed in Alastair Cambpell. I'm not his no 1 fan but I thought he had a brain and a keen understanding of bullshit. I thought he'd quickly get his head around how gender ideology makes idiots of politicians and lefties.

Malcolm Tucker wouldn't have stood for it!

He went straight to the Starmer line " a lot less polarisation and a little more understanding"......

Polarisation happens when one person tries to speak and to explain, and the other person shouts " No debate, you bigot". Or else " It's not an issue, just culture war stuff"

GailBlancheViola · 11/11/2024 15:28

He went straight to the Starmer line " a lot less polarisation and a little more understanding"......

And that line along with most oppressed HOW are they oppressed? and of course be kind.

No, zero, none, nada understanding of and for women nor any kindness.

It's polarised because one side, the majority of whom are men, are telling women what they are, how to refer to themselves, what they must do, what they must accept.

Aggie15 · 11/11/2024 15:32

Far right exploiting the gender

lifeturnsonadime · 11/11/2024 15:33

WorriedMutha · 11/11/2024 14:20

It is a growing dialogue so a screenshot wouldn't grab it.
Basically Campbell and Stewart referred to the woke issues influencing the US election outcome. And Campbell said that maybe we should give it more credence now it had been explained to him (referencing Farage).
JKR waded in to say she's pleased that now a man has explained the issue to him, he can see things from a woman's point of view.
He replies to say she's misrepresented him and he is schooled in women's issues by his wife and daughter.
(His daughter Grace is a raving troon and probably one of the reasons he gives this subject a swerve).
JKR responds 'yes I believe you' and she exhibits an unhinged anti JKR tweet from Grace.
Alastair tries to shut down the gotcha by saying he doesn't pretend to understand this issue as much as her and he would welcome her to his podcast.
Loads of comments underneath including queen Navratilova.
More importantly, Campbell et al would have happily continued to ignore this topic but that didn't work out very well for the Democrats and they now need to engage.

Can you please link any of the tweets in that exchange so I can find them?

lifeturnsonadime · 11/11/2024 15:42

lifeturnsonadime · 11/11/2024 15:33

Can you please link any of the tweets in that exchange so I can find them?

Scrap that, found it.

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2024 15:42

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4983818-moulton-doubles-down-on-transgender-athletes-comments-backlash-proves-my-point/

Rep. Seth Moulton (D-Mass.) doubled down on his recent comments about transgender athletes, saying the response to them proves his point.
“I was just speaking authentically as a dad about one of many issues where I think we’re just out of touch with the majority of voters, and I stand by my position,” Moulton said during an MSNBC appearance on Sunday. “The backlash I’ve received proves my point that we can’t even have these discussions as a party.”

“And we’ve got to be able to have these debates,” he added. “But, instead, we have a wing of our party that shames us, that tries to cancel people who try to even bring up these difficult topics, and, frankly, shames voters.”

“Yet there are many who, shouting from the extreme left corners of social media, believe I have failed the unspoken Democratic Party purity test,” he added. “We did not lose the 2024 election because of any trans person or issue. We lost, in part, because we shame and belittle too many opinions held by too many voters and that needs to stop. Let’s have these debates now, determine a new strategy for our party since our existing one failed, and then unite to oppose the Trump agenda wherever it imperils American values.”

Rep. Moulton defends comments about trans athletes: 'The backlash I've received proves my point'

Democrats are grappling with finding solutions for waning party support after President-elect Trump won the popular vote and was elected to the White House. Rep. Seth Moulton, D-Mass., addresses backlash he received over comments he made about transgen...

https://www.msnbc.com/weekends-with-alex-witt/watch/rep-moulton-stands-by-controversial-transgender-athlete-comments-amid-democratic-backlash-224073285910

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/11/2024 15:44

Aggie15 · 11/11/2024 15:32

Far right exploiting the gender

You mean grasping the nettle?

lechiffre55 · 11/11/2024 16:02

Isn't there a "tiny number" of serial killers?
In fact statistically speaking there are many more victims of serial killers than actual serial killers. Maybe we should be blaming the victims?

INeedAPensieve · 11/11/2024 16:03

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 11/11/2024 09:26

I posted in this topic about six months ago about being thrown out of a US based parenting group for basically saying I don't agree that JK Rowling is a Nazi.

A couple of days ago I received a message from one of the women in the group saying she agrees with me and has recently left the group in similar circumstances. (Nothing directly related to gender but she also disagreed with the group on a political issue and there was a pile on.)

The timing does seem significant. I suspect that after this election defeat, cracks are starting to open up all over the place.

Very interesting update @MissScarletInTheBallroom I remember that thread and always wondered about it afterwards and if you'd heard anything from anybody after you'd been removed from the chat. Was this the same woman who had privately chatted to you beforehand then when people starting piling on you she then changed tact and publically renounced herself from you? Interesting that she's now done the same to them. The house of cards never lasts long. X

UtopiaPlanitia · 11/11/2024 16:03

TheCoolOliveBalonz · 11/11/2024 11:11

Surely the Labour Party will now quietly drop all the gender nonsense. After Scotland and now the US, they must see what they have to lose. No one really believes in genderism. Even people who say they do, don't. The critical race theory is the other lesson to learn. No one likes being reduced to the colour of their skin so stop doing it! I reckon identity politics is over and done with now in the UK.

I hope you’re right but I have limited confidence in this prediction because Kier Starmer doesn’t have great political nouse on this issue, as demonstrated by his having to be dragged kicking and screaming to a position where he would say publicly that women don’t have penises. He’s always avoided giving a direct answer to any questions to do with women’s rights and the effect of gender ideology, he repeats the line that Labour are proud of the GRA 2004 and EA 2010. Apart from Wes Streeting, Cabinet members all seem to hold the same opinions on the matter as Starmer and a lot of Labour backbenchers are of the activist persuasion and hold the opinion that TWAW even more strongly.

For ID politics to be over and done with in the UK it has to be dropped by public institutions and businesses, that’s going to take time and effort because adoption of US-style EDI combined with intense lobbying by activists has really embedded the concepts in a lot of British organisations, as well as many arms of the State such as the Judiciary and various government departments.

The results of the US election are a welcome addition to the fight to return society to a saner position on a lot of issues but I don’t think this is the beginning of the end by any means.

Aggie15 · 11/11/2024 16:23

How do you delete posts? 😂 I sent one 1/2 of a sentence by accident, no idea how to get rid.

Far-right are fuelling the flames and using this issue. This issue has become dangerously polarised and toxic. Many on the left are either malicious, naive, ignorant or scared to be vocal about this and publicly lynched, doxxed or loose their jobs because of the gender id mob. If you are in an academic position and you dare to utter some concern about women's safety or god forbid remind people of biology you loose your job.

Left and progressives often fight 21st century issues with 20th century mindset. Only JKR can afford to stick her neck out. But then when you do you find yourself in unsavoury, often far-right company as allies. Why trans women are not happy to just be trans women? Many are and recognise the harm the militant trans identity lobby does but it is the narcissistic, psychopathological ones who are the loudest.

Because of bodily experiences determined by chromosomes, hormones, body shape and functioning, strongly influence identity, men inherently will never know how it is to be a woman, as women will never know how it is to be a man. Any deviance from a certain medically identifiable and documented gender norm is considered a medical abnormality with its distinct diagnosis and symptomatology. Thus, being a woman is much more than dressing up and outward signs of overblown, performative femininity. These bodily experiences unite the vast majority of us into one distinct biological category that underpins many of our rights, protections and basis for solidarity. Might add men do not seem to have the same issue with trans men, I wonder why? I really don't. Sad we need to point this out in the 21st century.

Moreover, trans women have to rely on very narrowly defined, often conservative, over the top female stereotypes as visual queues for the ultimate goal, societal validation to successfully "pass". But by doing this being a normal, real or CIS, if you like, woman completely escapes them because women do not have to dress and affect in certain ways to successfully pass as a woman. They just are. So in essence what trans women are is the reflection of the male imaginary about what it might be to be a woman.

Vast majority of trans women are intact males, with penises, who never plan to have gender reassignment surgery. Some of them who were heterosexual males when they transition simply rebrand their heterosexual desires and identify as lesbian. The most militant among them and their allies accuse lesbians who refuse to sleep with intact trans women of transphobia thus denying the right to the very biologically programmed sexual desire they reserve for themselves. They tell the lesbians they just need to learn to love penises.

Whetherornotyoutry · 11/11/2024 16:29

To be honest, I have even less respect for those who have supported this nonsense but do not believe that TWAW. So you have thrown women and children under the bus for likes? At least those who truly believe it have some integrity (albeit misguided integrity).

Aggie15 · 11/11/2024 16:43

I think the issue of trans women will fall at this following hurdle:

"Vast majority of trans women are intact males, with penises, who never plan to have gender reassignment surgery. Some of them who were heterosexual males when they transition simply rebrand their heterosexual desires and identify as lesbian. The most militant among them and their allies accuse lesbians who refuse to sleep with intact trans women of transphobia thus denying the right to the very biologically programmed sexual desire they reserve for themselves. They tell the lesbians they just need to learn to love penises."

Many in the LGB community are now realising what is happening. Many gay men like the actor James Dreyfus are very vocal about this issue and the fact that the Q++++++ community are using the blood sweat and tears of LGB people while wanting to force lesbian women to deny their sexuality and accept to date intact males who dress up and id as women. To state the bleeding obvious that would kinda make lesbian category redundant. But then it begets the question does homosexuality exist at all and is it biologically programmed or socially conditioned? LGB community fought for the recognition of the fact that sexual preference exists and it is innate.

LGB community is now very divided about this. But this is one fault line. The militant trans community wants to stifle any debate about this.

BabaYagasHouse · 11/11/2024 17:26

Datun · 11/11/2024 11:50

EyeofOrion

Your posts don't make any logical sense.

If you're going to claim that the issues are minuscule and are being amplified by bots, you need to provide examples.

This is a parenting website. Women here are concerned about their children's education and welfare. They see the information being taught to their children. They have compaigned against it, relentlessly.

This is a relatively small country compared to the US, and the women here can write to all the MPs, all the educational authorities, and all the prisons. It's not that big a task, and it's been done. Several times. We know what they say. We know what their policies are.

There's barely a woman here who either doesn't have a trans child, or sees their classmates identifying as trans. It's commonplace. Indeed, many of the women who set up support groups for women involved in this issue, started here.

Transwidows, Children of Transitioners, Sex Matters, Fair Play for Women, Posie Parker Standing for Women, Safe Schools Alliance, Keep Prison Single Sex, Man Friday.

All mumsnetters.

This is not theoretical. We're not guessing.

We're living it.

And the reason we know it's not unimportant? Because women are relentlessly targeted in order to shut them up.

I can give you chapter and verse on women who have been arrested for fuck all. Using the word castration, posting ribbons, attending rallies, saying my nan is a lesbian, putting up a poster in their house window. All verifiable, all provable.

Twitter was throwing women off for calling men, men. Megan Murphy was thrown off Twitter for saying yes that's him. Until musk stopped it.

Women have been banned from this very site.

Why do you think we say male born individual, instead of man? Why can't we use term trans identified male? Why do we use a code for AGP? Why do people get banned for calling it a cult?

if it's minuscule, why is the censorship so severe?

And if it's miniscule, why doesn't it just get rejected out of hand? By the Democrats, the Labour Party?

What are they so scared of? And if they're scared of the backlash over something minuscule, what the fuck does that tell you?

I know why they're scared.

When a meeting about this was held at the House of Commons, the woman at the houses of Parliament who answers the phone said she'd never known anything like it, the backlash, the threats, the objections.

When a meeting was scheduled to be held at a publicly hired room at Millwall football club, Millwall football club cancelled it due to the threats. To understand the context, they pride themselves on their slogan 'everybody hates us and we don't care.'

A woman was punched at speakers corner. She had to refer to her male attacker, who was convicted of battery, as she.

Men protest outside every single woman's meeting chanting burn it down, pouring piss on themselves, jostling and intimidating women aa they leave, threatening the venue, pouring soup on the heads of women, releasing insects so the building must be evacuated.

Many women here personally know many of those women.

So give over with the bloody nonsense that this is all bot generated and not real. As a tactic, it's really silly. As a protest, it's useless.

Edited

👏I too am saving this one!!

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