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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
nolongersurprised · 16/11/2024 08:17

Although I suspect Moulton is smart enough to correctly gauge which way the wind is blowing with this issue, and knows it’ll be to his advantage

Cailin66 · 16/11/2024 08:33

EyeofOrion · 12/11/2024 10:33

The Democrat response doesn’t undermine anything I’ve said. This is a culture war from many angles overseen by bad actors. You are only looking at the surface detail really - but there’s a whole networked ocean underneath.

Networked ocean underneath?

You mean like an underwork, or Stranger Things?

borntobequiet · 16/11/2024 08:56

When the Democrats say something like this:

In a statement responding to Moulton’s remarks, Mass Equality, a statewide LGBTQ rights group, said Moulton’s characterization of transgender girls as “male or formerly male” is “harmful and factually inaccurate.”

it’s no wonder that people think they’re at best dishonest, and at worst batshit.

x.com

https://x.com/massequality/status/1854623519973199982/photo/1

Ingenieur · 16/11/2024 09:01

borntobequiet · 16/11/2024 08:56

When the Democrats say something like this:

In a statement responding to Moulton’s remarks, Mass Equality, a statewide LGBTQ rights group, said Moulton’s characterization of transgender girls as “male or formerly male” is “harmful and factually inaccurate.”

it’s no wonder that people think they’re at best dishonest, and at worst batshit.

They called it factually inaccurate? What do they understand by the word "fact"?

I suppose when words cease to have meaning it doesn't matter.

OP posts:
nolongersurprised · 16/11/2024 09:04

I am angry with the Democrats for being so fucking idiotic.

EyeofOrion · 16/11/2024 09:34

Cailin66 · 16/11/2024 08:33

Networked ocean underneath?

You mean like an underwork, or Stranger Things?

Do you understand the meaning of ‘metaphor’?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 09:43

Just trying to catch up with this thread and although obviously bots do exist, I think the more useful and important discussion is, exactly HOW did so many institutions, including the Democratic and Labour Parties get so completely bamboozled by this ideology? Which is crazy, not based in material reality, disadvantages half of the population, has physically damaged thousands of young people, and that they didn't think that people would see through it?

Yes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 09:45

Although I completely accept that it's sometimes difficult to tell the difference between someone who is fishing for sympathetic, gullible people and someone who is trying to articulate a train of thought but can't quite get the words out - we're all here online anonymously, talking about contentiousness issues).

And I think some people are better at discerning it than others.

Peregrina · 16/11/2024 09:52

^said Moulton’s characterization of transgender girls as “male or formerly male” is “harmful and factually inaccurate.”^

It's got to the stage where I haven't a clue what they are on about. Are transgender girls young blokes or are they young women who think they are blokes? What a mess! Yet we all know that TW are not W however they want to call themselves.

EyeofOrion · 16/11/2024 09:53

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 09:45

Although I completely accept that it's sometimes difficult to tell the difference between someone who is fishing for sympathetic, gullible people and someone who is trying to articulate a train of thought but can't quite get the words out - we're all here online anonymously, talking about contentiousness issues).

And I think some people are better at discerning it than others.

What does this mean, exactly?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 09:56

Really interesting article @lcakethereforeIam

"The Trump ad gained momentum when the radio host Charlamagne tha God drew attention to it on his show, The Breakfast Club, which is influential with the black voters courted by both candidates. The ad prompted an on-air debate about LGBT rights and the fixation with gender ideology on the far-left.

That was nuts… When you hear the narrator say Kamala supports tax-payer funded sex changes for prisoners, that one line, I’m like ‘Hell no, I don’t want my tax-payer dollars going to that’,” Charlamagne said. “That ad was impactful.”

Trump’s team used clips from Charlamagne’s show to cut another ad, piling on the pressure. Asked about the issue in an interview with Fox News in October, Harris offered only a limp response.
I will follow the law, a law that Donald Trump actually followed,” the vice-president said. Harris’s campaign insisted that her message of unity would win out, despite feedback from activists on the ground that the anti-trans message was resonating with voters. There were calls from senior Democrats, including Bill Clinton, the former president, to rebut Trump’s claim more forcefully."

I remember the guy from the ad, I didn't know he was, but Twitter informed me that he was a famous radio host popular with the US black community. The ad was political gold, as the article demonstrates.

EasternStandard · 16/11/2024 09:59

borntobequiet · 16/11/2024 08:56

When the Democrats say something like this:

In a statement responding to Moulton’s remarks, Mass Equality, a statewide LGBTQ rights group, said Moulton’s characterization of transgender girls as “male or formerly male” is “harmful and factually inaccurate.”

it’s no wonder that people think they’re at best dishonest, and at worst batshit.

This is from the Democrats?

They can keep going with ever increasing gender madness but they may want to take note that they lost the senate, House, all swing states and popular vote

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 10:02

They can keep going with ever increasing gender madness but they may want to take note that they lost the senate, House, all swing states and popular vote

Yes. The defeat was pretty resounding. Harris was not a convincing candidate on the economy or social issues.

Peregrina · 16/11/2024 10:06

I do think it's a pity that it's become so politicised because Trump is no friend of women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 10:07

He isn't, I agree.

nolongersurprised · 16/11/2024 10:14

Peregrina · 16/11/2024 10:06

I do think it's a pity that it's become so politicised because Trump is no friend of women.

There’s rank misogyny on both sides.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 10:54

EasternStandard · 15/11/2024 19:03

They wouldn't listen if SM wasn't there. They don't listen if it is there.

I don't see why the focus on the latter is a factor for women

This.

And even without social media, the conversation would go in the same direction because this fracture in American society has been growing anyway and is hugely about religion and gun crime and it's difficult to see how this would be reconciled however you cut it.

I just think social media has speed up and inevitable process which would have happened at some point anyway.

You can see it in reactions to Obama's election and the Bush Wars. You can see it in how overseas funding for women's health has rested on position on abortion with certain initiatives being started every four to eight years and then completely reversed.

The tribalism and the justification for the unjust.

Those who have the money in America were able to dominate traditional media long before the internet. Do we think Musk would have sat on his hands and been silent in a world without social media, or do you think he would have been a disrupter still? Fox News would still have existed, happy to fuel on conservative American viewpoints.

I think technology change has had a destabilising effect, but you can't destabilise a situation which is doesn't have significant problems to begin with.

You still have formation of alternative cultures before the internet, which included groups which met up and communicated in other ways. So this would have happened - perhaps less so involving children - but certainly I was reading fanzines in the middle 90s and that led me to meeting people in real life before I started to do that with the internet a couple of years later. I was in my late teens before leaving 6th form. A friend of mine was doing similar from age 15 and she ended up with a dubious experience. Think of band fanclub culture as a good example of this. The internet has widened how many teens access the wider world and outside communities to more kids and probably slightly younger kids, but it was still there already. I genuinely think we'd have had the rise of anime culture within the UK regardless of the internet - and that would have attracted a similar crowd and similar types of issues because it tends to be a common focus. Equally gaming was already a thing and clearly was going to be going forward, regardless of the role of the internet within that. I'm fairly sure in the US churches and gun clubs would be similar types of focal points for exchanges of ideas.

Going back to politics the process of polarisation was well under way by the Clinton era - and the response to the Monica Lewinsky scandal. The Republicans tried to impeach Clinton for his lying and inappropriate conduct but the Democrats closed ranks on party lines to protect him. This arguably did significant long term damage to the US political system and if the Democrats had had the integrity to question his conduct properly the present might be very different. If you look back at the whole saga now through the lens of 2024 it really does look terrible, but somehow it was span away and political tribalism was more important than conduct of a political figure abusing his position of power and trust.

Clinton made a point of wording things in a very particular way to look like a total denial but actually just excluded the things he had done in the definition provided. And Clinton was enabled in this denial by Hillary Clinton which you could argue made her look weak and manipulable and under the control of Bill rather than acting independently.

Then you have George W Bush: a man who was one of the least popular presidents with his weapons of mass destruction and wars. Which again had a massive fracturing of US society.

Followed by Obama who scared with the mere idea of universal health care because they had been conditioned to be suspicious and opposed to anything vaguely resembling socialism due to a generation of McCarthism still lingering in the ears.

Throughout this period there was little working together on importance issues of national significance with Congress often blocking the President when they could. A culture of non-cooperation was well established.

Fast forward to Trump and it's harder to make anything stick because of tribalism, sexual misconduct in a position of power doesn't stick and stood next to a Democratic woman who has lied along party lines to secure her position it doesn't make her look great because the well has already been poisoned. By the historic actions of others. And she never did anything to step outside Biden's shadow or took the iniative for her own pet project. Once again there's this interpretation of Harris being weak and manipulable by shadowy men who are really in charge and her just going along with this for her own self interest and career.

I think we forget a lot of this history in the UK and how it has coloured the development of US politics and how voters respond. Hillary Clinton's image was promoted as a senior serious politician in her own right and tends to be what we now remember in the UK. The image of her being the wronged wife who went along with her husband and was made a fool of by him isn't one that has been promoted outside the US for obvious reasons, and instead was carefully managed. But this concept and idea was repeated and promoted during election cycles by the Republicans within America. Ditto Harris.

I think it's extremely difficult to get away from and key points like the manipulation and bastardisation of legalised language by the Democrats to suit an agenda rather than plain simple talking that may be blunt and honest but gets to the point even if somewhat crassly stand out.

Bill Clinton's actions and the Democrats tribalism that followed, made it much easier for Republicans and Republican voters to dismiss Trumps personal misconduct in favour of tribal priorities. We can't avoid this as a point.

And I would argue that the sight of Harris being weak in not challenging Biden's fitness for office and her merrily abusing and manipulating language to suit a political agenda (like Bill before her) and this overall political tribalism which goes back to before the internet was always going to be a massive problem because of what had gone before.

This issue of cultural correction and abuse of power which is then spun and sanitised is an ongoing theme of 30 odd years in the making.

Add in other economic and social twists and turns leading to economic hardship and growing mistrust in politicians and the media who enable the spin and haven't challenged the spin from 'their own side' when they should and the public resentment of this is very understandable. If you stand on the 'wrong side' of this massive social divide which has existed since the age of the civil war and has never gone away, I do think how you interpret many of these things would be hugely different to how we view it in the UK. Social media hasn't changed this dynamic. It was already widening with every election and every significant American political crisis - and we've just come off the back of one of the biggest social crisis the US has faced post WWII with COVID.

I don't deny the role of the internet in inflaming and speeding things up - but looks at it's foundations and recent history too. There's way more here that has added to the course of events. Polarisation has been led by politicians protecting their own self interests and personal careers way before broadband was revolutionising society.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 10:56

It might not be. But if you can see a politician saying that the sky is green, when you know the sky isn't green and you know they know the sky isn't green, then even if you don't care what colour the sky is it still makes you wonder what else they are lying about.

I think this is a key point that @MissScarletInTheBallroom made earlier in the thread, and not understood well even by political commentators who aren't in denial. The whole ideology is founded on untruths and gaslighting. People who push it are promoting untruths and gaslighting. They don't come across as trustworthy to most people, especially those who aren't mired in the issue. It's had an effect on Starmer's credibility too, and many other politicians worldwide.

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 10:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 09:45

Although I completely accept that it's sometimes difficult to tell the difference between someone who is fishing for sympathetic, gullible people and someone who is trying to articulate a train of thought but can't quite get the words out - we're all here online anonymously, talking about contentiousness issues).

And I think some people are better at discerning it than others.

Certainly.

But I've had my own motivations for posting on this board questioned on previous occasions.

I've had chance to reflect on why it happened and ultimately it was because of a poor choice of words on my part when I was trying to express a thought. But unfortunately, on at least one occasion, no matter how much I then tried to explain what I had meant to say, it got worse.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 11:06

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 10:56

It might not be. But if you can see a politician saying that the sky is green, when you know the sky isn't green and you know they know the sky isn't green, then even if you don't care what colour the sky is it still makes you wonder what else they are lying about.

I think this is a key point that @MissScarletInTheBallroom made earlier in the thread, and not understood well even by political commentators who aren't in denial. The whole ideology is founded on untruths and gaslighting. People who push it are promoting untruths and gaslighting. They don't come across as trustworthy to most people, especially those who aren't mired in the issue. It's had an effect on Starmer's credibility too, and many other politicians worldwide.

Absolutely.

It makes you question WHY they would say that and not challenge the untruth too. It raises questions of this shadowy conspiracy level force behind them who is making them say things they know to be untrue too.

It rings as a sign of weakness. Someone strong wouldn't repeat something they know to be a lie, because why would they?

Flip that to Trump who you know lies but on the whole is challenging the untried and otherwise supporting your cultural tribe anyway.

The accusation of lies and misconduct on Trump don't stick because 'well look at their lies and lack of integrity'.

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 11:12

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 10:54

This.

And even without social media, the conversation would go in the same direction because this fracture in American society has been growing anyway and is hugely about religion and gun crime and it's difficult to see how this would be reconciled however you cut it.

I just think social media has speed up and inevitable process which would have happened at some point anyway.

You can see it in reactions to Obama's election and the Bush Wars. You can see it in how overseas funding for women's health has rested on position on abortion with certain initiatives being started every four to eight years and then completely reversed.

The tribalism and the justification for the unjust.

Those who have the money in America were able to dominate traditional media long before the internet. Do we think Musk would have sat on his hands and been silent in a world without social media, or do you think he would have been a disrupter still? Fox News would still have existed, happy to fuel on conservative American viewpoints.

I think technology change has had a destabilising effect, but you can't destabilise a situation which is doesn't have significant problems to begin with.

You still have formation of alternative cultures before the internet, which included groups which met up and communicated in other ways. So this would have happened - perhaps less so involving children - but certainly I was reading fanzines in the middle 90s and that led me to meeting people in real life before I started to do that with the internet a couple of years later. I was in my late teens before leaving 6th form. A friend of mine was doing similar from age 15 and she ended up with a dubious experience. Think of band fanclub culture as a good example of this. The internet has widened how many teens access the wider world and outside communities to more kids and probably slightly younger kids, but it was still there already. I genuinely think we'd have had the rise of anime culture within the UK regardless of the internet - and that would have attracted a similar crowd and similar types of issues because it tends to be a common focus. Equally gaming was already a thing and clearly was going to be going forward, regardless of the role of the internet within that. I'm fairly sure in the US churches and gun clubs would be similar types of focal points for exchanges of ideas.

Going back to politics the process of polarisation was well under way by the Clinton era - and the response to the Monica Lewinsky scandal. The Republicans tried to impeach Clinton for his lying and inappropriate conduct but the Democrats closed ranks on party lines to protect him. This arguably did significant long term damage to the US political system and if the Democrats had had the integrity to question his conduct properly the present might be very different. If you look back at the whole saga now through the lens of 2024 it really does look terrible, but somehow it was span away and political tribalism was more important than conduct of a political figure abusing his position of power and trust.

Clinton made a point of wording things in a very particular way to look like a total denial but actually just excluded the things he had done in the definition provided. And Clinton was enabled in this denial by Hillary Clinton which you could argue made her look weak and manipulable and under the control of Bill rather than acting independently.

Then you have George W Bush: a man who was one of the least popular presidents with his weapons of mass destruction and wars. Which again had a massive fracturing of US society.

Followed by Obama who scared with the mere idea of universal health care because they had been conditioned to be suspicious and opposed to anything vaguely resembling socialism due to a generation of McCarthism still lingering in the ears.

Throughout this period there was little working together on importance issues of national significance with Congress often blocking the President when they could. A culture of non-cooperation was well established.

Fast forward to Trump and it's harder to make anything stick because of tribalism, sexual misconduct in a position of power doesn't stick and stood next to a Democratic woman who has lied along party lines to secure her position it doesn't make her look great because the well has already been poisoned. By the historic actions of others. And she never did anything to step outside Biden's shadow or took the iniative for her own pet project. Once again there's this interpretation of Harris being weak and manipulable by shadowy men who are really in charge and her just going along with this for her own self interest and career.

I think we forget a lot of this history in the UK and how it has coloured the development of US politics and how voters respond. Hillary Clinton's image was promoted as a senior serious politician in her own right and tends to be what we now remember in the UK. The image of her being the wronged wife who went along with her husband and was made a fool of by him isn't one that has been promoted outside the US for obvious reasons, and instead was carefully managed. But this concept and idea was repeated and promoted during election cycles by the Republicans within America. Ditto Harris.

I think it's extremely difficult to get away from and key points like the manipulation and bastardisation of legalised language by the Democrats to suit an agenda rather than plain simple talking that may be blunt and honest but gets to the point even if somewhat crassly stand out.

Bill Clinton's actions and the Democrats tribalism that followed, made it much easier for Republicans and Republican voters to dismiss Trumps personal misconduct in favour of tribal priorities. We can't avoid this as a point.

And I would argue that the sight of Harris being weak in not challenging Biden's fitness for office and her merrily abusing and manipulating language to suit a political agenda (like Bill before her) and this overall political tribalism which goes back to before the internet was always going to be a massive problem because of what had gone before.

This issue of cultural correction and abuse of power which is then spun and sanitised is an ongoing theme of 30 odd years in the making.

Add in other economic and social twists and turns leading to economic hardship and growing mistrust in politicians and the media who enable the spin and haven't challenged the spin from 'their own side' when they should and the public resentment of this is very understandable. If you stand on the 'wrong side' of this massive social divide which has existed since the age of the civil war and has never gone away, I do think how you interpret many of these things would be hugely different to how we view it in the UK. Social media hasn't changed this dynamic. It was already widening with every election and every significant American political crisis - and we've just come off the back of one of the biggest social crisis the US has faced post WWII with COVID.

I don't deny the role of the internet in inflaming and speeding things up - but looks at it's foundations and recent history too. There's way more here that has added to the course of events. Polarisation has been led by politicians protecting their own self interests and personal careers way before broadband was revolutionising society.

Yep.

That's why I've mentioned the excellent documentary Hypernormalisation because it covers all of this stuff really well. Most of the examples in the documentary are pre-internet and show all the different ways that destabilisation (and then opinion manipulation) can be achieved at scale in a society.

Bad actors will gro0m and manipulate, using whatever tools are available at the time and getting themselves in to positions of influence. This is the bit that's relevant to bots and algorithms:

I just think social media has speed up and inevitable process which would have happened at some point anyway.

The role of the Democrats here is one of complicit weakness to not recognise what's happening. And of course they also had people in influencial positions with potentially questionable motivations (choosing my words as carefully as I can), which could easily have had a direct influence on healthcare for example and an indirect influence on keeping other Democrats complicit. And in stopping them opening their ears to listen to what people are saying.

Edited for clarity

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 11:14

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 10:59

Certainly.

But I've had my own motivations for posting on this board questioned on previous occasions.

I've had chance to reflect on why it happened and ultimately it was because of a poor choice of words on my part when I was trying to express a thought. But unfortunately, on at least one occasion, no matter how much I then tried to explain what I had meant to say, it got worse.

Bonfire. Ive done that before and it makes we worry and cringe. BUT my feeling is a consistent pattern of a point - which is allowed to evolve over time with events and wider understanding - is more important than individual badly worded posts.

If you do it repeatedly without reflection and without listening again it's problematic.

You demonstrate listening by showing agreements on certain points or creating arguments with reasoning. You do this.

It's the posters that plop and drop or repeat mantras or fail to engage that aren't getting it. They may criticise individual posts but if they can't tackle a wider point it's nitpicking to try and undermine your whole argument. That doesn't have traction if your overall position has merit and reasoning even if you word it badly.

I am of the opinion that badly worded opinions are worth listening to work out if they have merit and can be reworded. It's the substance of the point not the presentation.

Again this is effectively all about spin.

It's about learning to recognise a good argument badly made and a bad argument well made.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:17

I love your careful re-writing of the history of this thread, as if it didn’t start out with “WTF - bots? Are you stupid?” and finish with “We know this. Are you stupid? Also, are you just trolling?”

That's not actually how it started out, because bots weren't the topic of this thread and they didn't come into it until hundreds of posts in.

Your first several posts on this thread, with zero mention of "bots" roundly dismissed the idea that this could be perceived by the US electorate as an issue for women's rights. You completely dismissed the idea of men in women's sports as being a problem for the Democrats and said it was a "sound bite" for "right wing goons". The impact was "minuscule".

So it's a bit rich to talk about rewriting history or claiming that you understand the issues for women.

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 11:21

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 11:14

Bonfire. Ive done that before and it makes we worry and cringe. BUT my feeling is a consistent pattern of a point - which is allowed to evolve over time with events and wider understanding - is more important than individual badly worded posts.

If you do it repeatedly without reflection and without listening again it's problematic.

You demonstrate listening by showing agreements on certain points or creating arguments with reasoning. You do this.

It's the posters that plop and drop or repeat mantras or fail to engage that aren't getting it. They may criticise individual posts but if they can't tackle a wider point it's nitpicking to try and undermine your whole argument. That doesn't have traction if your overall position has merit and reasoning even if you word it badly.

I am of the opinion that badly worded opinions are worth listening to work out if they have merit and can be reworded. It's the substance of the point not the presentation.

Again this is effectively all about spin.

It's about learning to recognise a good argument badly made and a bad argument well made.

You've given me the motivation I needed to re-read this thread from the top down, see the comments I know I'll have missed (because of the pace it's been moving at) and think about how it's all unfolding in a nit-picking vs "I wish I'd worded that better" way.

I've got about 30 mins before I need to go anywhere. I'm going to buy another coffee from the lovely little cafe that I'm in and make a start...

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