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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

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35
Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:24

Which is ironic, because so many "bots" claims have been debunked. There is a whole industry that's sprung up in locating "bots", and producing bogus reports. They're very very reluctant to actually divulge their data, because whenever they do, a huge number of their "bots" turn out to be real.

Also @NecessaryScene made an excellent point. Yes there are bots, but there are also conspiracy theories around bots. Yes there is misinformation/disinformation, but some of the organisations claiming to combat it are positively Orwellian. To be able to distinguish truth from fiction, or half truth, isn't easy in the age of social media.

I've seen campaigns that I've contributed to personally be dismissed as entirely the work of "bots", by TRA influenced commentators.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 11:24

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 11:12

Yep.

That's why I've mentioned the excellent documentary Hypernormalisation because it covers all of this stuff really well. Most of the examples in the documentary are pre-internet and show all the different ways that destabilisation (and then opinion manipulation) can be achieved at scale in a society.

Bad actors will gro0m and manipulate, using whatever tools are available at the time and getting themselves in to positions of influence. This is the bit that's relevant to bots and algorithms:

I just think social media has speed up and inevitable process which would have happened at some point anyway.

The role of the Democrats here is one of complicit weakness to not recognise what's happening. And of course they also had people in influencial positions with potentially questionable motivations (choosing my words as carefully as I can), which could easily have had a direct influence on healthcare for example and an indirect influence on keeping other Democrats complicit. And in stopping them opening their ears to listen to what people are saying.

Edited for clarity

Edited

Spot on.

Hypernormalisation is such a niche programme and it's amazing it was ever made by the BBC tbh. It's the BBC at its very best.

It's very specific in its area and understanding which won't be of interest to many people to this degree. But it's HUGELY important.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:28

You've given me the motivation I needed to re-read this thread from the top down, see the comments I know I'll have missed (because of the pace it's been moving at) and think about how it's all unfolding in a nit-picking vs "I wish I'd worded that better" way.

I've just done it, as you can see from some earlier comments made by posters that I've just highlighted, and I'm satisfied that I understand how it's unfolded.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 11:30

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:24

Which is ironic, because so many "bots" claims have been debunked. There is a whole industry that's sprung up in locating "bots", and producing bogus reports. They're very very reluctant to actually divulge their data, because whenever they do, a huge number of their "bots" turn out to be real.

Also @NecessaryScene made an excellent point. Yes there are bots, but there are also conspiracy theories around bots. Yes there is misinformation/disinformation, but some of the organisations claiming to combat it are positively Orwellian. To be able to distinguish truth from fiction, or half truth, isn't easy in the age of social media.

I've seen campaigns that I've contributed to personally be dismissed as entirely the work of "bots", by TRA influenced commentators.

I've been accused of being a bot and being a paid political party employee to influence MN before now.

The idea that someone could have a keen interest in this area and be educated a certain way AND be a woman with a small child and not the best track record with anxiety is one that people struggle to compute.

Frankly, being paid would be nice. But not being paid and not having to answer to a social media policy that could damage my career also gives me a certain freedom of thought and expression too.

When you have repeatedly been accused of being a bot and being paid it undermines the entire bot argument cos you just think 'how many bots are just people saying what they think that other people don't like and want to discredit'.

It loses it's power and credibility.

For the most part I try and give the benefit of the doubt for this reason. Knowing and understanding that if it is a bot, my human response still holds value.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:30

Hypernormalisation is such a niche programme and it's amazing it was ever made by the BBC tbh. It's the BBC at its very best.

It is. I agree. I've been meaning to watch it again for a while. The Century of the Self is really interesting too, I think it's all on IPlayer.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:34

For the most part I try and give the benefit of the doubt for this reason. Knowing and understanding that if it is a bot, my human response still holds value.

Yes me too. It's useful for other people to read at least one genuine response. It's why rightly or wrongly I often engage with trolls on social media in general. For the lurkers.

EyeofOrion · 16/11/2024 11:46

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:17

I love your careful re-writing of the history of this thread, as if it didn’t start out with “WTF - bots? Are you stupid?” and finish with “We know this. Are you stupid? Also, are you just trolling?”

That's not actually how it started out, because bots weren't the topic of this thread and they didn't come into it until hundreds of posts in.

Your first several posts on this thread, with zero mention of "bots" roundly dismissed the idea that this could be perceived by the US electorate as an issue for women's rights. You completely dismissed the idea of men in women's sports as being a problem for the Democrats and said it was a "sound bite" for "right wing goons". The impact was "minuscule".

So it's a bit rich to talk about rewriting history or claiming that you understand the issues for women.

I don’t appreciate your taking bits and pieces of my sentences and making new ones entirely out of context. And I didn’t completely dismiss any issue being a problem for Democrats, let alone men in women’s sports.

Re: plopping - talked about to another poster - I live in another time zone. I’m about to go to bed RN, so it would seem that my posts will drop right off while discussions on MN pick up. I don’t ‘plop’, but it might look that way I suppose.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 11:46

BonfireLady · 16/11/2024 11:21

You've given me the motivation I needed to re-read this thread from the top down, see the comments I know I'll have missed (because of the pace it's been moving at) and think about how it's all unfolding in a nit-picking vs "I wish I'd worded that better" way.

I've got about 30 mins before I need to go anywhere. I'm going to buy another coffee from the lovely little cafe that I'm in and make a start...

I think that I certainly make a lot of my posts on the fly. And given they are often lengthy, the scope for me to say something that could have been phrased better is enormous.

Humans are not perfect. The idea that our thoughts and comments on MN should be worded perfectly is ridiculous.

What is important is the thought process around that post and how you come to that reasoning.

Back in 2016 post Brexit there was a lot on here about Cambridge Analyticas influence and I did (and do still) think it was problematic.

BUT I have since come to the conclusion after talking to real life humans that there's a scatter gun thing with lots of these strategies tried - but only a small number ever gain traction with humans.

And when you consider this, you have to then consider why certain points hit the mark, whilst others don't.

Conspiracy theories only gain resonance because they contain a certain element of truth and then subsequent doubt which matches with the public.

These are cracks in political rhetoric and governance. And they ARE important because they do reflect real life issues and concerns.

We therefore CANNOT dismiss bots as being irrelevant or something that is purely a malevolent outside influence. The ones that ressonant are the rawest form of dissatisfaction and concern. They hit with people who then dont look further and critically assess their weaknesses and they are often poorly worded and packaged. But their essence does contain a crucial important element that needs looking at and tackling rather than sweeping under the carpet. Otherwise you merely fuel the conspiracy theory.

Crucially the principles of liberal democracy are rather high minded and pure. But they should be and they should apply to all quarters equally.

The problems have arisen when individuals and groups have shown disregard for these principles for self gain and interest rather than national and public interest. It's a form of corruption.

The pattern of liberal democracy throughout history has been one of formation against tyranny, a golden age, then an age of corruption and then ultimate collapse into authoritarianism again. It seems to be one humans can't escape because it's about cycles of power. Unfortunately it's not hard to work out where in the cycle we may be.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 11:49

EyeofOrion · 16/11/2024 11:46

I don’t appreciate your taking bits and pieces of my sentences and making new ones entirely out of context. And I didn’t completely dismiss any issue being a problem for Democrats, let alone men in women’s sports.

Re: plopping - talked about to another poster - I live in another time zone. I’m about to go to bed RN, so it would seem that my posts will drop right off while discussions on MN pick up. I don’t ‘plop’, but it might look that way I suppose.

I post at really random hours. It's not a problem. Plopping isn't about the hours you post at. Plopping is dropping a point and not following it up or engaging further. You aren't plopping. I disagree with you. But you aren't plopping.

EyeofOrion · 16/11/2024 11:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:24

Which is ironic, because so many "bots" claims have been debunked. There is a whole industry that's sprung up in locating "bots", and producing bogus reports. They're very very reluctant to actually divulge their data, because whenever they do, a huge number of their "bots" turn out to be real.

Also @NecessaryScene made an excellent point. Yes there are bots, but there are also conspiracy theories around bots. Yes there is misinformation/disinformation, but some of the organisations claiming to combat it are positively Orwellian. To be able to distinguish truth from fiction, or half truth, isn't easy in the age of social media.

I've seen campaigns that I've contributed to personally be dismissed as entirely the work of "bots", by TRA influenced commentators.

For those in the back - I’m not a TRA, nor am I influenced by TRAs. Ffs.

I NEVER CLAIMED ENTIRELY. Ever.

Please stop misrepresenting me and what I wrote.

HermioneWeasley · 16/11/2024 11:58

Many democrats seem incapable of self awareness and reflection. They are (rightly) concerned about an anti vaxer being appointed health secretary but seem incapable of understanding that ‘Rachel’ Levine was an equally bizarre, unqualified choice. Ditto arguing that they’re the party of science but arguing that people can change sex and women can have a penis, or saying that Trump lies when they lied and lied to the country about Biden being cognitively fit.

LilyBartsHatShop · 16/11/2024 12:01

borntobequiet · 16/11/2024 08:56

When the Democrats say something like this:

In a statement responding to Moulton’s remarks, Mass Equality, a statewide LGBTQ rights group, said Moulton’s characterization of transgender girls as “male or formerly male” is “harmful and factually inaccurate.”

it’s no wonder that people think they’re at best dishonest, and at worst batshit.

Post-truth. Truthiness. Misinformation. Disinformation. Bullshit.
The Democrats cannot hold Donald Trump to standards they're not holding to themselves.

RedToothBrush · 16/11/2024 12:07

HermioneWeasley · 16/11/2024 11:58

Many democrats seem incapable of self awareness and reflection. They are (rightly) concerned about an anti vaxer being appointed health secretary but seem incapable of understanding that ‘Rachel’ Levine was an equally bizarre, unqualified choice. Ditto arguing that they’re the party of science but arguing that people can change sex and women can have a penis, or saying that Trump lies when they lied and lied to the country about Biden being cognitively fit.

Quite.

And I suspect a great many of those Democrats who stayed home rather than vote, ultimately feel a lot of these sentiments whilst they might not verbalise them as being about trans v womens right or about a culture war per se.

Its about this wider feeling of hypocrisy and a lack of self reflection and accountability when this SHOULD be occurring.

In this context, Trump doesn't appear quite the boogie man he should. Not to mention people have short memories for the sheer outrage that Trump invoked whilst he was in office.

Already we have even moderate Republicans expressing alarm at some of his initial picks for office because of this.

2025 will get wild pretty quickly I suspect.

Helleofabore · 16/11/2024 12:38

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 11:28

You've given me the motivation I needed to re-read this thread from the top down, see the comments I know I'll have missed (because of the pace it's been moving at) and think about how it's all unfolding in a nit-picking vs "I wish I'd worded that better" way.

I've just done it, as you can see from some earlier comments made by posters that I've just highlighted, and I'm satisfied that I understand how it's unfolded.

For anyone who might not have realised, there was also a direct cross over from the filled up Trump thread to this one too. Just for further background.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 12:49

For those in the back - I’m not a TRA, nor am I influenced by TRAs. Ffs.

I NEVER CLAIMED ENTIRELY. Ever.

Please stop misrepresenting me and what I wrote.

I'm talking about Necessary's point and referring to my own experience outside of MN. It is nothing to do with you. Stop misrepresenting my posts.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 12:51

Re: plopping - talked about to another poster - I live in another time zone. I’m about to go to bed RN, so it would seem that my posts will drop right off while discussions on MN pick up. I don’t ‘plop’, but it might look that way I suppose.

I didn't once mention "plopping". So don't post about it when quoting me, please.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 12:53

Many democrats seem incapable of self awareness and reflection. They are (rightly) concerned about an anti vaxer being appointed health secretary but seem incapable of understanding that ‘Rachel’ Levine was an equally bizarre, unqualified choice. Ditto arguing that they’re the party of science but arguing that people can change sex and women can have a penis, or saying that Trump lies when they lied and lied to the country about Biden being cognitively fit.

Yes, it's quite breathtakingly shortsighted.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 12:53

Sorry meant to quote you @HermioneWeasley

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 12:59

I don’t appreciate your taking bits and pieces of my sentences and making new ones entirely out of context. And I didn’t completely dismiss any issue being a problem for Democrats, let alone men in women’s sports.

You rather rudely accused @Helleofabore of "rewriting history". I'm not the only poster to think that's projection. I apologise if you feel the quotes don't reflect your position.

Happy to quote those individual posts for discussion:clarification if you prefer? I think it's a matter of opinion how dismissive of women's sex based rights you were, and I'm not the only person to say it.

Brainworm · 16/11/2024 13:12

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/11/2024 12:53

Many democrats seem incapable of self awareness and reflection. They are (rightly) concerned about an anti vaxer being appointed health secretary but seem incapable of understanding that ‘Rachel’ Levine was an equally bizarre, unqualified choice. Ditto arguing that they’re the party of science but arguing that people can change sex and women can have a penis, or saying that Trump lies when they lied and lied to the country about Biden being cognitively fit.

Yes, it's quite breathtakingly shortsighted.

Couldn't agree more

UtopiaPlanitia · 16/11/2024 13:15

lcakethereforeIam · 16/11/2024 09:38

Oh, like 'out to sea'?

Another article in the Times about Republican tactics in the election

https://archive.ph/afxd1

https://www.thetimes.com/world/us-world/article/kamala-harris-trans-gender-democrat-election-campaign-kvzqz9d6c

Thanks for posting that article Cake. This section really stood out to me because it shows that the gender identity issue did have some impact on voters and more importantly political strategists are now very aware that it had that effect:

In the aftermath of Trump’s convincing victory, where he swept all seven swing states and clinched the popular vote as America swung to the right, the ad has been credited with tipping the race in his favour. An analysis by Harris’s own super political action committee, Future Forward, found that the ad shifted the race by 2.7 percentage points after viewers watched it, The New York Times reported.

“Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you” has instantly taken its place alongside the most effective political slogans in American election history, with “Morning in America”, the iconic ad that launched Ronald Reagan’s 1984 campaign and Barack Obama’s 2008 slogan: “Yes We Can”.”

Helleofabore · 16/11/2024 13:37

UtopiaPlanitia · 16/11/2024 13:15

Thanks for posting that article Cake. This section really stood out to me because it shows that the gender identity issue did have some impact on voters and more importantly political strategists are now very aware that it had that effect:

In the aftermath of Trump’s convincing victory, where he swept all seven swing states and clinched the popular vote as America swung to the right, the ad has been credited with tipping the race in his favour. An analysis by Harris’s own super political action committee, Future Forward, found that the ad shifted the race by 2.7 percentage points after viewers watched it, The New York Times reported.

“Kamala is for they/them. President Trump is for you” has instantly taken its place alongside the most effective political slogans in American election history, with “Morning in America”, the iconic ad that launched Ronald Reagan’s 1984 campaign and Barack Obama’s 2008 slogan: “Yes We Can”.”

So Trump’s strategy team saw it and took advantage and the DP just doubled down on their past decisions?

Says a great deal about the DP and their ability to be agile and look deeply at issues they have dismissed as their position being the only righteous one. And yeah, nah. The dismissal of that party not being responsible for their own decisions and lack of depth of analysis just don’t stack up at all.

Brefugee · 16/11/2024 13:48

nolongersurprised · 16/11/2024 10:14

There’s rank misogyny on both sides.

i can't remember where i saw this -maybe even this thread - but given a choice between being grabbed by the pussy and having your children transed, the choice was easy.

Brainworm · 16/11/2024 13:56

"Kamala is for they/them"

The Democrats who are doubling down on this hold in mind 'they/thems' who are gentle, peaceful gender non conforming citizens who need protecting from harm..

The majority of the public see the people the Dems have in mind as a subgroup of the "they/thems' and think many other subgroups require controls and interventions to be placed on them to prevent others from harm. They rightfully object to Kamala making all these people her priority

Ingenieur · 16/11/2024 15:30

Brefugee · 16/11/2024 13:48

i can't remember where i saw this -maybe even this thread - but given a choice between being grabbed by the pussy and having your children transed, the choice was easy.

Yes I recall seeing this too.

The chances of being assaulted by Trump being essentially zero vs the loss of rights and safeguards under gender identity compliance being universal.

The choice is, as you say, easy.

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