Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Helleofabore · 15/11/2024 03:41

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 03:23

Sigh.

I’ve been asked for resources. I’ve given some. I’ve been told they’re not relevant. I’ve been told I need to explain them. If I do so, I’ll be told again my explanation is wrong or inadequate. I can’t win.

I’ve also been told I’m a troll, a TRA, a bot, and unintelligent. Why should I carry on explaining?

Good to know.

Codlingmoths · 15/11/2024 04:12

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:58

I've already written about that on this thread, but I'll say again. Awareness. You can only be aware of what might be going on around you. You could be having an online discussion with a bot, or by retweeting someone, you are amplifying the engagement of a troll post. Have a look at that image to see how that works.

If you know what you are discussing is real and happened and is happening, it’s not misinformation. That applies whether it’s a bot or not - if a bot tells me 2+2=4, I agree with them.

nolongersurprised · 15/11/2024 05:12

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 03:23

Sigh.

I’ve been asked for resources. I’ve given some. I’ve been told they’re not relevant. I’ve been told I need to explain them. If I do so, I’ll be told again my explanation is wrong or inadequate. I can’t win.

I’ve also been told I’m a troll, a TRA, a bot, and unintelligent. Why should I carry on explaining?

You’ve been asked for examples, not articles. You’ve said on another thread that bot-generated amplification and propaganda is so common that I’d have been exposed to it with videos and memes.

You’ve said this over and over again and yet not supplied a single, on the ground example.

Sigh

QuietlyStorming · 15/11/2024 05:21

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 03:23

Sigh.

I’ve been asked for resources. I’ve given some. I’ve been told they’re not relevant. I’ve been told I need to explain them. If I do so, I’ll be told again my explanation is wrong or inadequate. I can’t win.

I’ve also been told I’m a troll, a TRA, a bot, and unintelligent. Why should I carry on explaining?

Perhaps you don’t need to (carry on explaining)?

Look I say this with kindness. I feel fairly new here and like I am one of the lurkers for which this thread has been a fantastic education. Your points were useful and valid at times. There are bots, they can use our voices to amplify their campaigns and awareness is key seems to be your point.

Great, thanks, got it.

I’m not sure there’s much more to add?

The core issue is still a valid real life one that needs to be addressed. The bots/other side/boogey man could use our voices to their advantage. So what? We’re aware, thank you. It does not change the course, it’s a distraction.

My identity could be stolen by scammers online. Yep, a reasonable worry in this day and age. Do I stop living my life or being online because of the threat? Nah, I keep on keeping on. Being aware and taking precautions. Onwards we move.

As your link says “she persisted”. And so we do, despite ‘the bots’.

(That might make no sense, I’m currently sleep deprived 🥴)

CautiousLurker1 · 15/11/2024 05:30

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:58

I've already written about that on this thread, but I'll say again. Awareness. You can only be aware of what might be going on around you. You could be having an online discussion with a bot, or by retweeting someone, you are amplifying the engagement of a troll post. Have a look at that image to see how that works.

What is frustrating is the clinging to the position that we are all relying in SM to inform our position and are thus influenced and misinformed by troll farms and bots. I’ve only been on MN for less than a year. I do not have insta/tiktok/reddit accounts and never venture there - precisely because of my knowledge of the fact that the bad actors there have been part of the grooming of my child in those places (because ‘grooming’ whether by activist humans or bots/troll farms programmed and run by activist humans is what has been happening).

Instead I know as fact that most of us here are informed by research - the real stuff, that we access on university and bonafide research websites, where the reports we are reading are written by clinical and academic professionals with detailed research data that we’ve sat, picked apart and interpreted for ourselves (I’ve even contacted those researchers to ask more detail) and most of that research comes with 100page reference lists (each reference of which we have often also read to ensure it has not been misrepresented or parts been cherry picked).

How do I know this? Because we share those research links and docs in threads, in our DMs and even in off site communications (as some of us have actually connected IRL and via organisations such as the WRN). I’ve had many conversations where I’ve parsed reports with people and concluded that the evidence in them, despite the results saying what I wanted them to, is flawed or weak and that I’d like to see the study replicated with larger samples, or better questionnaires, across different geographies to be absolutely sure that its findings are robust. You don’t look to and simply accept that a piece of research agrees with your position, you look at why and how it does, you look for factors that may be confirming your own pre-existing personal bias, you examine whether the report writer(s) have recognised and addressed their own. And I know many women who have posted here do precisely this because their posts and DMs discuss this.

So yes, Joe Public needs to be aware of trolls/bot farm influence and the fact that certain gifs/memes appear on their timelines, that liking/engaging with them shapes the algorithms of which accounts and the topics appear in their ‘for you’ lists… but those posting and lurking here are not those people.

GoldSnake · 15/11/2024 05:40

I think politics needs to leave it alone. There's a lot of medical and psychological research needed.
I can accept that some are stuck in the wrong body.

But why is it in creasing so much?

And as a school teacher I see a lot of kids detransition

CautiousLurker1 · 15/11/2024 05:48

GoldSnake · 15/11/2024 05:40

I think politics needs to leave it alone. There's a lot of medical and psychological research needed.
I can accept that some are stuck in the wrong body.

But why is it in creasing so much?

And as a school teacher I see a lot of kids detransition

Kids detransition precisely because there is no such thing as ‘born in the wrong body’ - as the science and psychological research evidences.

The politics should build on that science and research but absolutely needs to address it: politics is about funding of medical provision and psychological services, its about funding and the development of guidance policies in schools, the NHS (or Medicaid eligibility in the US), it’s about safeguarding the vulnerable in society (children, the elderly, the disabled) and ensuring things like intimate care preserves their dignity and privacy, or that male sex offenders cannot identify into women’s prisons (statistically the most damaged and vulnerable female demographic in both the US and UK).

Politics should absolutely NOT ‘leave it alone’.

borntobequiet · 15/11/2024 06:07

GoldSnake · 15/11/2024 05:40

I think politics needs to leave it alone. There's a lot of medical and psychological research needed.
I can accept that some are stuck in the wrong body.

But why is it in creasing so much?

And as a school teacher I see a lot of kids detransition

How on earth can you “accept that some are stuck in the wrong body”? What does it mean?

Why should “politics leave it alone”? What do you think politics is and is for? Are you not aware that politicians propose and enact legislation, and flawed legislation is part of the reason we are in this ridiculous situation, where there is no clear definition of sex?

As a school teacher, you are responsible for developing children’s critical faculties and thinking skills. As a longterm, now retired, teacher, I suggest that you try to develop your own.

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 06:26

nolongersurprised · 15/11/2024 05:12

You’ve been asked for examples, not articles. You’ve said on another thread that bot-generated amplification and propaganda is so common that I’d have been exposed to it with videos and memes.

You’ve said this over and over again and yet not supplied a single, on the ground example.

Sigh

Edited

The trouble is examples are hard to find as they are usually removed fairly quickly - as I’m sure you can appreciate.

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 06:29

CautiousLurker1 · 15/11/2024 05:30

What is frustrating is the clinging to the position that we are all relying in SM to inform our position and are thus influenced and misinformed by troll farms and bots. I’ve only been on MN for less than a year. I do not have insta/tiktok/reddit accounts and never venture there - precisely because of my knowledge of the fact that the bad actors there have been part of the grooming of my child in those places (because ‘grooming’ whether by activist humans or bots/troll farms programmed and run by activist humans is what has been happening).

Instead I know as fact that most of us here are informed by research - the real stuff, that we access on university and bonafide research websites, where the reports we are reading are written by clinical and academic professionals with detailed research data that we’ve sat, picked apart and interpreted for ourselves (I’ve even contacted those researchers to ask more detail) and most of that research comes with 100page reference lists (each reference of which we have often also read to ensure it has not been misrepresented or parts been cherry picked).

How do I know this? Because we share those research links and docs in threads, in our DMs and even in off site communications (as some of us have actually connected IRL and via organisations such as the WRN). I’ve had many conversations where I’ve parsed reports with people and concluded that the evidence in them, despite the results saying what I wanted them to, is flawed or weak and that I’d like to see the study replicated with larger samples, or better questionnaires, across different geographies to be absolutely sure that its findings are robust. You don’t look to and simply accept that a piece of research agrees with your position, you look at why and how it does, you look for factors that may be confirming your own pre-existing personal bias, you examine whether the report writer(s) have recognised and addressed their own. And I know many women who have posted here do precisely this because their posts and DMs discuss this.

So yes, Joe Public needs to be aware of trolls/bot farm influence and the fact that certain gifs/memes appear on their timelines, that liking/engaging with them shapes the algorithms of which accounts and the topics appear in their ‘for you’ lists… but those posting and lurking here are not those people.

Edited

Thank you for this. I appreciate the reasoned explanation of where you’re coming from, and it sounds quite a reasonable approach.

nolongersurprised · 15/11/2024 06:36

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 06:26

The trouble is examples are hard to find as they are usually removed fairly quickly - as I’m sure you can appreciate.

Sure.

So the evidence is, “Trust me, bro”.

Screenshots would be fine, before they are removed

NecessaryScene · 15/11/2024 06:56

The trouble is examples are hard to find as they are usually removed fairly quickly - as I’m sure you can appreciate.

And this is your huge problem shaping discourse? Something that is hard to find because they're removed quickly?

How often do you see them? Are they in the room with you now?

I've seen more logical arguments about why we haven't caught any fairies...

QuietlyStorming · 15/11/2024 06:59

Are they in the room with you now?

🤣

GenerativeAIBot · 15/11/2024 07:15

GoldSnake · 15/11/2024 05:40

I think politics needs to leave it alone. There's a lot of medical and psychological research needed.
I can accept that some are stuck in the wrong body.

But why is it in creasing so much?

And as a school teacher I see a lot of kids detransition

Nobody is stuck in the wrong body.

plenty of people have enough trauma or mental health issues for a symptom to be unhappiness and because of irresponsible reporting and the encouragement of older men who are into gender swapping for sexual thrills - that unhappiness is pinned onto “thinking they are transgender”

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2024 07:43

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:51

And this image taken from a 2023 British government report titled ‘Mis- and Dis-Information - Extremism in the Digital Age.’ (I attempted to attach it but the link is dodgy.) It clearly shows how a piece of information is disseminated by troll farms/bots.

Question.

We understand that bots can do this.

What would happen if there was a grassroots issue that was winding up the public on its own merit, because effectively every time you watched a TV programme it had messaging about how you should behave and what you should believe? Or every time you went to the doctors you got a leaflet that omitted the word woman? And then your teenage daughter or granddaughter comes home and says she's a boy after having been educated about gender identity? And then you go to the pub and find it's a gender neutral toilets and you feel really uncomfortable? And you go to work and you are forced to do compulsory diversity training?

In terms of ordinary grassroots issues organically growing, what pattern would they follow?

Would there been an initial phase where government tested the water and then seeded departments with equality requirements and standards to match and then you began roll out in earnest - crucially BEFORE you had done a proper impact assessment or public consultation involving ALL vested interest groups - and then you found out than none of it had public support and you had a full scale backlash on your hands?

I mean how would the pattern look any different to a paper pusher? How would you tell which issue is bot led and which is grassroots led as a reaction to institutional and governmental overreach and authoritarianism?

Ironically there has now been an act which reaches the definition of extremism - but it's not been carried out by those pointing out that biology is real.

I'm curious.

I wonder how the poll tax riots would be characterised in this era.

I can't help but feel that dismissing all these issues as purely 'bot led' is simply a way to try and discredit or to try to ignore the problem. It's a way for those with influence to bury their heads in the sand a bit longer.

The actual question now is: how are government going to deal with this?

Bots have become somewhat irrelevant on this one at this point.

Brefugee · 15/11/2024 07:51

Going back a bit:

Don’t get too excited about the Dems coming to their senses any time soon. Although I see AOC removed her pronouns from her bio today! Most are 100pc true believers, and would rather the whole party implode rather than reverse position on the issue.

Seems to me as though AOC at least has recognized that they (Dems) have been found wanting. Her background should habmve been telling her that during campaigning. She has a huge mandate though, I think, which indicates to me that she is probably good at her job and her constituents trust her.

Removing her pronouns is interesting. It shows, at least, an understanding of the image problem and why the Dems were so widely rejected. (whatever her personal beliefs on GI may be). The big question is:is that a start on the way to winning the 12 million (plus) back to the Democrats? Is it a recognition that her constituents CBA putting the GI issue above their real everyday issues (jobs, housing, inflation) etc etc.

We will see

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2024 07:53

You see on this particular issue there was a failure of accepted best practice introducing these ideas which went against all ethical practices.

The lack of due diligence and following normal protocol standards out.

In response there was an acknowledged strategy of trying to get laws passed 'under the radar' before the public became aware.

None of this adds up to a smooth passage of these ideas.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 15/11/2024 08:13

GoldSnake · 15/11/2024 05:40

I think politics needs to leave it alone. There's a lot of medical and psychological research needed.
I can accept that some are stuck in the wrong body.

But why is it in creasing so much?

And as a school teacher I see a lot of kids detransition

Why do you "accept that some are born in the wrong body"?

Where is the evidence for that?

When I was at school 30 years ago there were essentially no "trans kids". There were some girls who were described as tomboys who usually wore their hair short and preferred more stereotypically masculine clothing and hobbies, and preferred to play with boys rather than other girls. Those girls are now women. Some are lesbians. Some still present in a fairly masculine way. Some are perfectly unremarkable heterosexual married mothers.

I can only think of one person I knew as a child who has become a trans adult. That person was a very ordinary, if awkward and lonely, teenage boy, who now lives as a trans woman.

As far as I can tell, "trans people" is an umbrella term covering the following three groups: (1) heterosexual biological males who have transitioned as adults, often after being married to a woman and fathering children; (2) homosexual biological males who wanted to be girls from a very young age; and (3) adolescent and young adult biological females who did not present with any kind of gender dysphoria in childhood and are usually neuro diverse or have suggested some sort of trauma.

(I am not including in my definition any of the young people currently identifying as trans or non binary because they think it's cool, of which there are many. I'm looking at you, young Shoreditch hipster named Matt with a full beard and moustache, who uses they/them pronouns.)

Of the three groups I referred to above, only one of them presents with gender dysphoria in early childhood. I know that being transgender is much more well known these days than it was 30 years ago, but if all these adult men really had been "born in the wrong body" you'd think more of them would have said something about it before getting to the age of 45 and informing their wife and kids that they are a woman now. And as for these adolescent girls and young women who are now identifying as trans men or non binary, these ideas have been mainstream for long enough now that the younger ones at least would have been aware of it as children. If someone who is 15 today suddenly starts saying they were trans, how likely is it really that they have felt this way since they were a toddler but never spoken about it until now? Or is it more likely that they felt pretty much like a normal girl until something recently changed to make them not want to be one anymore? And if so, what?

Once you take away the two groups who appear to have gone through early life not believing that they were "born in the wrong body", you're left with the third group. The boys who said they were girls at a very young age. The group on whom all of the research about medically transitioning children is based.

Of all trans people, this group is probably the one with the most credible claim to have been "born in the wrong body" on the basis that there is actual evidence that they have always felt this way. And yet, even then it's problematic. As adults they are overwhelmingly likely to be sexually attracted to other biological males rather than biological females. So it's worth examining why they have come to the conclusion that they are a girl, rather than that they might be gay. And how do you know whether the way they feel is down to nature or nurture? If the people around them neither encouraged them to be trans nor discouraged them from being gay, would they still have decided they were trans?

Susie Green, the former CEO of Mermaids, gave a very enlightening Ted Talk (which has now been removed from the internet) about this. She says that when her son Jack was a toddler, he wanted to wear girls' clothes and play with girls' toys. She said that she assumed that he would probably be gay and she would have been fine with that, but her husband was not fine with it and tried to punish his son for liking girly things. But when they failed to turn him into a proper little boy, they set about turning him into a little girl. It seems to me like you've got all the ingredients there. A homophobic father who won't accept a gender non conforming son and it horrified by the idea that his son might grow up to be gay. A mother who seems to have taken great delight in having a child who was different and special, becoming a poster child for a civil rights movement and giving her a special status as the mother of a trans child. Even, possibly, some gender disappointment at play here? If I remember correctly, Jackie Green's siblings are all boys. Perhaps their parents desperately wanted a girl.

The person I knew as a teenage boy who now lives as a trans woman apparently wanted to be a girl from a young age. I can't speculate about what his childhood with his parents was like. I know his parents, I like them, but they're not my parents and I don't know what it was like to grow up with them. They do still have a relationship with their former son, now daughter, but I think it has been difficult for everyone. Interestingly, their former son, now adult daughter, is in a relationship with another trans woman. So if there was any internalised homophobia at play, transitioning has in no way made them "straight".

This has turned into a rather long ramble. But essentially, I'd be very interested to know how many trans people there actually are who (1) have identified as the opposite sex since very early childhood; (2) have not experienced any homophobia; (3) had parents who were loving and supportive, who didn't have any "gender disappointment" and didn't encourage them to be trans in any way; and (4) did not suffer any kind of child abuse.

If you can find me a happy, well-adjusted, heterosexual adult with loving and supportive parents who has identified as the opposite sex since they were a toddler despite having none of the red flags referred to above, I might be willing to entertain the "born in the wrong body" idea. But I have yet to encounter one.

Datun · 15/11/2024 09:08

Helleofabore · 15/11/2024 02:22

Yes.

just to add that I think that has a whole lot to do with the issue these political parties are experiencing. You only have to look at the interactions where feminist groups were ignored. One example would be where actively shunned from committees and policy influencing meetings. One example specific to the UK has been the exclusion of speciific women’s groups from having a stall at the Labour Party’s annual conference.

The Tory government's own equality report headed up by Maria Miller was incredibly one-sided. The only people interviewed were transactivists. Including Jane Fae, the one who's been advocating for extreme porn all their life, just Bradley, who exposed his penis at work, and action for trans health, who want to release all trans prisoners and be able to operate on one another.

Maria Miller called those who objected, 'women purporting to be feminists'.

When was that? 2015, 16?

Women have been jumping up and down about this issue since long before Trump. They've been roundly ignored.

Purporting, as they were, to care

EasternStandard · 15/11/2024 09:11

GoldSnake · 15/11/2024 05:40

I think politics needs to leave it alone. There's a lot of medical and psychological research needed.
I can accept that some are stuck in the wrong body.

But why is it in creasing so much?

And as a school teacher I see a lot of kids detransition

I can accept that some are stuck in the wrong body.

This line is problematic, can you say why you think this?

I hope it doesn't come up at school as it's really baseless and damaging

lcakethereforeIam · 15/11/2024 09:17

I wonder if the Democrats and their supporters are going through the stages of grief at the moment? I'm a bit hazy on the details, I think IT need to upgrade my programming, but isn't the first stage denial? Or is it anger? From what I'm seeing it's probably anger.

Datun · 15/11/2024 09:17

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 06:26

The trouble is examples are hard to find as they are usually removed fairly quickly - as I’m sure you can appreciate.

The evidence we work off, on the other hand, isn't removed.

Books by Helen Joyce, Kathleen Stock, Hannah Barnes, the Cass report, firsthand accounts of clinicians at the Tavistock and, of course, the words and actions of transactivists themselves.

Who obviously go out of their way to have nothing removed.

I find it difficult to believe that you cannot find a single example of some bot driven evidence that isn't true, and only designed to divide.

If you can't even find one, then one can only conclude they haven't been very influential!

How about you invent one? As an example?

What would be a hypothetical meme we might all have seen? One that you consider might manipulate us into a position that was not reflected by reality.

lifeturnsonadime · 15/11/2024 09:24

I mean this all boils down to 'you silly little women don't understand you are being played and should shut up' doesn't it?

Eye you might not identify as a TRA but you're doing their job for them.

Your posts really are offensive because you are assuming you are all knowing and we are being misled.

RedToothBrush · 15/11/2024 09:25

I will add to the above point:

We have a situation where we are constantly bombarded with messages and training about safeguarding which are in direct opposition to all the messages and training about trans awareness.

This in itself would create conflict and polarisation as the cognitive dissonance required to follow both is enormous.

What you would see form would be a conflict point between groups which prioritised each and felt each was an important matter that affected them directly.

This, of course, is EXACTLY the dynamic that has arisen.

In this context, and on a wider scale, when the less invested are asked to 'pick a side' - are they more likely to support safeguarding and ethical practice or an identity belief system? ESPECIALLY if they already have their own religious belief?

In addition to this, if we can identify cognitive dissonance sanctioned by institutions who then seek to oppress questioning of the said cognitive dissonance, then you also feed into taught values about freedom of speech and democracy...

I think when we ponder this, we should look at other issues and whether we have the same institutional level interference and led cognitive dissonance.

Personally since this was starting to affect me on a personal level as far back as the mid 2000s, I tend to think I've not been influenced by bots. And whilst I'm wise enough to think bots will have been deployed to disrupt western politics to a degree(hell I was studying disinformation and the history/future of communication change back in the 1990s were you?), I'm also not arrogant enough to think I'm the only person who has been deeply, directly negatively affected by it to a point where I have wanted to challenge power over it because its inherently flawed and its causing real life problems.

And this is the bit in the conversation that Bot Theorists don't want to acknowledge and deal with; there are problems arising from gender identity replacing sex that need to be looked at, given proper consideration to where there are conflict points and actually fucking deal with them.

Rather than repeating mantras, saying theres no problem, calling people bigots or telling them its all about the bots.

DEAL WITH THE FUCKING PROBLEM YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT. TACKLE DIFFICULT SUBJECTS RATHER THAN RUNNING AWAY FROM THEM.

When I was studying politics and propaganda one of the key things we talked about a lot as it was right in the middle of the 1997 election, was the influence of spin and how it had become such an important tool of political parties to persuade the public.

I think we have reached a point where its almost industralised and definitely ingrained into the fabric of our political structures.

But I also think that the public has got wiser and wiser about the deflect, avoid and change the subject tactics to avoid tackling controversial and difficult issues and they are thoroughly fed up of it. Since the rise of political spin public trust in politicians has declined and I don't think this is a coincidence. I think its the primary cause of it. And of course when the public starts to not trust politicians and the main stream press to that degree, it becomes more vulnerable to other sources. (Adam Curtis's BBC documentaries on the concept are a difficult watch but he very much is focused on this idea of spin and misinformation weaponised by government 'for the greater good' of liberal democracy and how this has ultimately undermined the very principles of liberal democracy. And how this has affected perceptions of western nations outside the western bubble with real life consequences).

But I think politicans are not coping well with the fact that their strategy of the last 30 odd years of spinning a shit story and then carrying on as before, rather than the process of acknowledge, apologise, take action to fix the problem and then put in process to prevent it occuring again which you would have to in a business situation is no longer working. And they are at something of a loss of knowing what to do because they've been too busy chasing votes rather than managing and governing a country effectively and efficiently. And THAT is what voters REALLY want.

Its a loss of power over the public by politicians which is coming out in the wash...

It think its interesting how this has played out really: In the US particularly we've seen a pattern of 'kick the problem to the next election cycle/government' and when you reach a point of the public being fed up, the other lot come in and you repeat the process. There was an understanding between the two parties and something of a balance in this. In some respects the reason the Democrats are so terrified is because Trump breaks this agreement because they know there is no guarentee they will get the opportunity to get back into power.

But I kind of understand it from the public point of view. If you understand that government isn't there to look after you and to serve you, then what is the point in it? How does democracy actually benefit you, if your concerns and interests aren't addressed anyway? If you feel law and order has already broken down and that you don't see anything for your tax dollars? If you don't feel you can speak freely? Then your choice becomes - is this group a better cultural fit for me on a wider level or is that group a better cultural fit? If the narrative then becomes "if that group get in it will be permanent" why would you choose to keep the system of democracy that you felt wasn't working for you anyway?

Now, I am very much pro liberal democracy - I think I've bored the tits off people ranting about this posted enough on the subject over the years to merit this being understood. BUT I make a point of trying to look at things from different view points and picking up on how you always should refer back to the principles of ethics, why laws were introduced in the first place (history of their inception and what they set out to achieve) and the idea of 'unintended consequences'. My over riding thought about politicians over the last few years is they are totally lacking in due diligence skills and understanding the above points. This hasn't always been the case.

And I do think all of this adds up to the situation we find ourselves in. That didn't need the influence of bots to eventually occur. I just think its speeded up a process that would have happened anyway because thats been the course of things for a long time.

Musk as a figure in the midst of all this is really interesting as he doesn't like to go along with what he's supposed to do and think. He likes to challenge status quo thinking (or established or establishment thinking). Again, he'd probably be doing that, at this point, without being amplified by bots anyway.

I just think its far far too easy to go 'its the bots'.

It shows a really shallow depth of knowledge about politics, propaganda and the public over the last 30 to 40 years.

And as I say, it doesn't offer a solution to where we are now.

Datun · 15/11/2024 09:26

Also EyeofOrion, the other thing you have to remember is that Mumsnet isn't Twitter.

many women come onto Mumsnet precisely because of that reason.

The scrutiny here is forensic. Especially from women like Helleofabore.

Any discourse or claims that have no basis in reality gets exposed.

Hence when conclusions are reached, they are founded in evidence and reality, not manipulative soundbites.

There's a reason we don't get that many TRAs on here compared to elsewhere.

They have found out that it's nothing more than a foot shooting exercise.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.