Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
BonfireLady · 15/11/2024 00:27

FlirtsWithRhinos · 14/11/2024 12:37

I'm sorry, but No Shit Sherlock.

The reaction you are getting is not because no one wants to listen, it is because we know this. It's bloody obvious. One of the eye opening things about finding one of your core values no longer aligns with your "tribe" is reading across the divide and seeing what bias is in the messages they are getting, and how that also illuminates the bias what your side is getting.

I have to admit I was a little disappointed by your suggestions of practical steps because honestly, it's what smart people do anyway, and did even before social media and manipulation ramped up the stakes. Trace stories back to sources you trust, to named people if you can. Constantly cross check taking different points of view, and with what you already know - do things still stack up? Argue with yourself constantly. Assume the people who disagree with you, while maybe wrong, are acting in good faith, and be aware the ones who align with you may not be who they seem, may have have an agenda.

Trust long, well argued posts over short ones. Play the argument not the person. Avoid thought terminating characterisations like "Facist" or "Woke" to make an argument and go back as often as you can to the first principles/values that you base your position on (hence the long posts).

A handy rubric for me is when you come accross a story that makes you go "Yes!", that seems to align to exactly what your own perspective is, either agreeing with you or gosh-darn just a great example of exactly what the other side get so wrong, be wary. The world is complex and there's always nuances, compromises and less-than-we-might-like.

It's a few years ago now I think, but FWR had a great accidental education session from a group of TRAs (there is statistically significant over-representation of trans identifying men in technology - did you know that? How do you think that has distorted the neutrality of tech platforms on this social phenomenon?) trying to use an early GPT to outsmart us. Spoiler - it didn't work, because GPTs do not form a logically coherent position to argue from so the longer you debate with them, the clearer the gaps in their logic are. It's worth finding that thread if you can - given your background I think you will be interested.

But as several PPs have pointed out, this has gone beyond just "what people are saying on the internet". Laws that undefine womanhood as exclusively female have been enacted. Women have been slandered as Nazis - Nazis - and hounded out of their jobs. Men have been taken part in Women's sports. Male rapists have been considered suitable for inclusion in women's prisons. Young women's understanding of Feminism and of the reasons they never seem to get the same traction that men do has been undermined by the diversion into gender identity politics, persuaded the belief that "a woman is more than her body" means a woman can have any body, as if allowing men to claim to be women will somehow defang the sexist stereotypes and biases women face. The Denton's docuemnt, unbelievable as it seems, was not a hoax, it was available on Denton's website for some time. I downloaded it myself.

No doubt the social pressures that pushed for these changes were inflamed by bad actors, but they did and still are happneing. Doing nothing is not an option.

The Democrats called this one wrong. They do need an honest converstaion on gender identity, one where they ask themselves "Why do we believe this? What does it mean for a person with a male body to be "a woman" and what does that mean for everyone who up to now considered herself a a woman because she is female. What does it mean for the rights and political voice of women and of female people, if womahood is a feature of the mind not the female body? How exactly did this belief that is so clearly full of gaps and contradictions come to be such a defining feature, even a test of loyality, for us and our supporters? Is this really who we are or were we fooled and lead here?"

BTW, I genuinely would like to hear your thoughts/analysis on the un-overseen powers that accrue to people in the tech industry and to mods of popular platforms - people who do not need to say anything or be visible at all to wield significant control over what people are able to view, and in the case of Reddit, TikTok, Facebook etc created the impression that almost no one was questioning the genderist position. Like many others I have seen this happen in real time as one side of a conversation was simply censored away, with anyone not there at the time it happened to see the actual posts that were made being given a completely different description of the event afterwards.

Great post ⬆️

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 00:47

Helleofabore · 14/11/2024 14:50

The reforming of answers to answer each specific 'derailment' is something I find useful. Not just reading other's posts, who I read with interest because there is usually something new there that is thought provoking. Even it if it just a reminder in a timely manner and I already have read similar posts from them previously.

I find it useful because I re-evaluate my stance when I rewrite posts. Often, I will even go and recheck things to refresh my memory and seek new updated information.

The posts by that poster are probably not classic derails, agreed. However, and we have seen this very recently on other threads, they perhaps have a tendency to make opinion statements that I think some of us read as being stated as fact. And then some of us think, ok, let's see this laid out so we can work out whether it will shape our understanding. So, we ask for clarity, again thinking it is a statement that is supported by much stronger information than it is. Then it all just cycles around and around and it may resemble a 'derail' when it could be argued to be relevant.

Your 'no shit Sherlock' statement was one I said to myself in my brief waking period this morning. I was slower to pick up the particular pattern (it is not just one poster, this is not in any way a 'troll hunting' post) this time because I was distracted by work so much.

Of course, it is actually a worthy discussion to have about media manipulation. Not from the direction of absolving the DP of their weak strategies in this issue as was posited. But from the direction of their seeming failure to have even recognised it is an issue because of the reasons we are discussing on this thread and whether there is any credibility to whether the DP dismissed the issues because they believed it has been a 'culture war' created by bots and other theories. And other reasonable discussion points.

I was expecting some great insight with some evidence of real depth of thinking coming from understanding the media manipulation issue and from having a depth of understanding on how this issue has become this important issue that no one risks discussing in some political parties. And we have got some great insights now. Other posters have articulated the issues very well because they have taken the time to write paragraphs that pull it all together (even if those paragraphs are not in one post).

Of course, it is not new information to many of us who have had the discussions before, but it is useful because it has been shaped for this specific purpose.

And it is useful for the new readers to see the answers from various angles but that tend to align as always.

I love your careful re-writing of the history of this thread, as if it didn’t start out with “WTF - bots? Are you stupid?” and finish with “We know this. Are you stupid? Also, are you just trolling?”

It’s insulting. I’m pleased, though, you have some great insights now.

hihelenhi · 15/11/2024 01:01

Oh aye, I see the DARVO is full on at work now 😂

Someone's getting riled.

I don't think any great "insights" have been revealed have they? Anyone care to list what they are supposed to be?

Tell you what I'd also like to know. Why it is that TRAs who come on here to try to tell off the nasty wimms ALL attempt the same projection tactics? Almost like they know their "arguments" are built on sand and hold no integrity whatsoever, but someone's given them a playbook to cut and paste from instead?

Bit pathetic really. Have you never considered promoting a perspective based on facts, principles and integrity? It might prevent the effort of having to be disingenuous.

UtopiaPlanitia · 15/11/2024 01:09

Orion I've been reading this thread for days and I've watched as* *you've have been repeatedly vague when asked for more information on the subject you introduced to the thread - I for one would love to hear details from you based on your claimed area of work. I don't know why you're snide to people when they ask - maybe you're experiencing the questions as a challenge to your professional knowledge rather than the request for specifics that it is, but it is genuinely a request for more information.

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:28

This is a good read, for starters.

she-persisted.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/ShePersisted_MonetizingMisogyny.pdf

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:31

hihelenhi · 15/11/2024 01:01

Oh aye, I see the DARVO is full on at work now 😂

Someone's getting riled.

I don't think any great "insights" have been revealed have they? Anyone care to list what they are supposed to be?

Tell you what I'd also like to know. Why it is that TRAs who come on here to try to tell off the nasty wimms ALL attempt the same projection tactics? Almost like they know their "arguments" are built on sand and hold no integrity whatsoever, but someone's given them a playbook to cut and paste from instead?

Bit pathetic really. Have you never considered promoting a perspective based on facts, principles and integrity? It might prevent the effort of having to be disingenuous.

Edited

Helle brought up ‘ insights’, not me.

Can you stop saying ‘wimms’? I find that just a tad misogynistic. And I’m not a TRA simply because you don’t appreciate what I’m saying.

hihelenhi · 15/11/2024 01:47

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:31

Helle brought up ‘ insights’, not me.

Can you stop saying ‘wimms’? I find that just a tad misogynistic. And I’m not a TRA simply because you don’t appreciate what I’m saying.

😂

Oh blimey, you're getting really desperate now, aren't you? No, I won't stop saying it. It's sarcasm, in case you're unaware of what that is. Not serious. A joke. Not remotely misogynistic. It's the way that TRAs imply we are, not how I personally describe us.

But you know that I'm sure. Are the wheels coming off the bus a bit for you? Oh dear. That's what happens when you spend all your time 'derailing'.

You really haven't said anything worth appreciating, as far as I can tell. And I have read the whole thread, including your contributions. You seem to be incredibly busy mostly insulting women who are far, far smarter and well informed than you are, and who have been here for years.

hihelenhi · 15/11/2024 01:50

Anyway, I'd still like to know why exactly it is that people who claim not to be TRAs but spend all their time on threads here dismissing women's views and claiming we're stupid and influenced by "bots" keep doing the same projection DARVO thing all the time. We've seen it time and time again, you know, it's really quite tiresome. Although always informative for lurkers who are watching. Thanks.

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:51

And this image taken from a 2023 British government report titled ‘Mis- and Dis-Information - Extremism in the Digital Age.’ (I attempted to attach it but the link is dodgy.) It clearly shows how a piece of information is disseminated by troll farms/bots.

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity
Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2024 01:53

And? What do you expect women on MN to do about these bots?

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:55

@hihelenhi

You really haven't said anything worth appreciating, as far as I can tell. And I have read the whole thread, including your contributions. You seem to be incredibly busy mostly insulting women who are far, far smarter and well informed than you are, and who have been here for years.

If that's all you've got out of it, and you've resorted to rudeness, that says more about you than me.

hihelenhi · 15/11/2024 01:57

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:51

And this image taken from a 2023 British government report titled ‘Mis- and Dis-Information - Extremism in the Digital Age.’ (I attempted to attach it but the link is dodgy.) It clearly shows how a piece of information is disseminated by troll farms/bots.

And? Why are you still banging this silly drum, despite everything people have told you here about why this is irrelevant?

We're not "bots" , and has been explained to you multiple times on this thread, if you could be bothered to read, we haven't been "misinformed by bots". For one, the facts are with us. And we have been informed by those, by our own feminism and experience, and those of other women. Who are real, not "bots".

Many of us picked up the on this being a problem a LONG time before the likes of Trump did. Like, years. With evidence. From our OWN experience. Stop insulting us. Stop projecting. You've done it in practically every post.

UtopiaPlanitia · 15/11/2024 01:58

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:28

I'll have a wee read of that tomorrow.

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2024 01:53

And? What do you expect women on MN to do about these bots?

I've already written about that on this thread, but I'll say again. Awareness. You can only be aware of what might be going on around you. You could be having an online discussion with a bot, or by retweeting someone, you are amplifying the engagement of a troll post. Have a look at that image to see how that works.

hihelenhi · 15/11/2024 01:58

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:55

@hihelenhi

You really haven't said anything worth appreciating, as far as I can tell. And I have read the whole thread, including your contributions. You seem to be incredibly busy mostly insulting women who are far, far smarter and well informed than you are, and who have been here for years.

If that's all you've got out of it, and you've resorted to rudeness, that says more about you than me.

You have resorted to rudeness to multiple posters in multiple posts.

Again.

Darvo in action. People can read, you know? Stop projecting.It says nothing good about the "movement" you are glaringly obviously supporting. And as I said, this really is getting desperate now. Bore off.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2024 01:59

This poster thinks the "culture war" started with Trump winning the election in 2016. The push for transgender ideology started in earnest in 2014. That is absolutely part of the "culture war".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2024 02:01

You could be having an online discussion with a bot

Yes, quite. I'll try to ignore repetitive, pointless, inflammatory comments from now on.

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 02:02

@hihelenhi

And? Why are you still banging this silly drum, despite everything people have told you here about why this is irrelevant?

How is a report into state-funded internet misogyny - particularly of public figures - irrelevant? How is it silly? It was written by women, for women. Why dismiss it?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2024 02:06

I'm confident that for the most part I'm not just accepting any old crap I read online. That's as much as anyone can ask for. I will continue to highlight the problems of treating men as women and lying to children that they can change sex.

Helleofabore · 15/11/2024 02:07

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 01:51

And this image taken from a 2023 British government report titled ‘Mis- and Dis-Information - Extremism in the Digital Age.’ (I attempted to attach it but the link is dodgy.) It clearly shows how a piece of information is disseminated by troll farms/bots.

Just plonking down resources about disinformation without articulating how that is relevant to this specific issue of prioritisation of gender identity over female sex based needs and the medicalisation of children, and the Democratic Party’s strategy relating to the issue is not really adding to the thread. Many of us understand how disinformation campaigns work.

Would you like to show the connection that you obviously see but have failed to explain?

UtopiaPlanitia · 15/11/2024 02:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2024 01:59

This poster thinks the "culture war" started with Trump winning the election in 2016. The push for transgender ideology started in earnest in 2014. That is absolutely part of the "culture war".

I think it's because a lot of the warning about, and the dissecting the dangers of, trans ideology was carried out by feminists/women that society at large ignored it. Feminists and women in general are often treated this way and problems ignored until they become too pervasive to disregard (better conceptualised as "until the problems affect the menfolk's lives too").

It definitely results in the frequent phenomenon of our society not taking an issue seriously until a man either amplifies the women's voices or steals and repackages what they're saying for his own social advancement.

It sucks being a personification of Cassandra of Troy and I greatly admire all the women who've gone through it over the centuries and still persisted in trying to warn the rest of us.

Helleofabore · 15/11/2024 02:10

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/11/2024 02:01

You could be having an online discussion with a bot

Yes, quite. I'll try to ignore repetitive, pointless, inflammatory comments from now on.

Indeed.

Helleofabore · 15/11/2024 02:22

UtopiaPlanitia · 15/11/2024 02:09

I think it's because a lot of the warning about, and the dissecting the dangers of, trans ideology was carried out by feminists/women that society at large ignored it. Feminists and women in general are often treated this way and problems ignored until they become too pervasive to disregard (better conceptualised as "until the problems affect the menfolk's lives too").

It definitely results in the frequent phenomenon of our society not taking an issue seriously until a man either amplifies the women's voices or steals and repackages what they're saying for his own social advancement.

It sucks being a personification of Cassandra of Troy and I greatly admire all the women who've gone through it over the centuries and still persisted in trying to warn the rest of us.

Edited

Yes.

just to add that I think that has a whole lot to do with the issue these political parties are experiencing. You only have to look at the interactions where feminist groups were ignored. One example would be where actively shunned from committees and policy influencing meetings. One example specific to the UK has been the exclusion of speciific women’s groups from having a stall at the Labour Party’s annual conference.

Helleofabore · 15/11/2024 02:40

”Many of us picked up the on this being a problem a LONG time before the likes of Trump did. Like, years. With evidence. From our OWN experience.”

Yes! just because Trump and others like him have picked up on it, doesn’t explain why the Democratic Party ignored women’s voices for so long in the first place, and still are. And need to have the honest discussion as per the thread title.

Disinformation campaigns don’t explain why, for example, the Democratic Party have ignored women’s voices and yet celebrated male voices who say they are women.

EyeofOrion · 15/11/2024 03:23

Helleofabore · 15/11/2024 02:07

Just plonking down resources about disinformation without articulating how that is relevant to this specific issue of prioritisation of gender identity over female sex based needs and the medicalisation of children, and the Democratic Party’s strategy relating to the issue is not really adding to the thread. Many of us understand how disinformation campaigns work.

Would you like to show the connection that you obviously see but have failed to explain?

Sigh.

I’ve been asked for resources. I’ve given some. I’ve been told they’re not relevant. I’ve been told I need to explain them. If I do so, I’ll be told again my explanation is wrong or inadequate. I can’t win.

I’ve also been told I’m a troll, a TRA, a bot, and unintelligent. Why should I carry on explaining?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread