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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
Thread gallery
35
Brefugee · 13/11/2024 15:17

She also is very aware that women are fearful of her (as she is of them and has been the subject of awful comments) so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable

It doesn't matter. This person is a man. And they ought to know that, as you do. You are kind using female pronouns, i would if face to face but talking about them? the best I'll do is non-specific 3rd person pronouns.

This person does not ever, never, belong in women's single sex spaces and it is arrogance of the absolute highest level to enter them. This person can avoid the "awful comments" - if only women could only ever get "awful comments" - by not invading women's spaces.

What are the comments? have any of them been by autistic teenagers? for example?

UtopiaPlanitia · 13/11/2024 15:18

Sorry Maddy but the female half of the human species is not a support system for shy and dysfunctional men - we deserve to have our own spaces and services just for us alone. Your friend does not have a any justification for imposing on women. Your protective relationship with your friend does not extend any obligation to the rest of womankind.

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:22

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 10:04

Can you provide us with the evidence that any male person, in any stage of transition, has the same degree of risk or lower than female people of committing a sex crime or a violent crime?

And if not, can you please explain what the process is that those male people go through that removes their risk of committing sex and violent crime.

I mean considering the publicly available statistics of the male people with trans identities in UK prison, you must have some ability to use that population for the basis of your evidence and your explanations, no?

So you want me to find statostics about transitioned people that aremt causing any problem? They wont exist will they?

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 13/11/2024 15:26

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:22

So you want me to find statostics about transitioned people that aremt causing any problem? They wont exist will they?

They aren’t now magically a woman. Your friend is still a man.

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 15:33

Brefugee · 13/11/2024 13:41

I sense from your posts that you think even one feminist voicing concerns and posting is too many for you.

Was it a Swedish study that showed that when women speak 30% of the time in a meeting male members judge them to have completely dominated it?

The comparison isn't that women's voices (talking about women's rights) are speaking a lot compared to people speaking about trans rights and finding it a lot. It is comparing women's voices (talking about women's rights) to ZERO people talking about women's rights, and therefore it is always too many. (notwithstanding that "women's rights" are then put through the TRAnslator to mean "anti-trans")

I remember that study. And yes, that is how that poster’s posts come across. That any feminist speaking is too many.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 15:36

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:02

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

He couldn't face the world as male. Now she functions.

She is not a predator to women she is facing the predators alongside us! it's important she can use women's spaces. She also is very aware that women are fearful of her (as she is of them and has been the subject of awful comments) so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable

Sounds as if he's gay. As in same sex attracted. Lots of young nascently gay children struggle with their developing self.....they always have; the problem is now there is a transgender industry waiting to channel them along a gender affirming/trans path, rathar than supporting them as the same sex attracted people they are.

No matter how lovely this particular friend is, he remains male. It is not even so much about being physically threatened by such men ( unless in a sporting scenario)...it is more about the inherent privacy and dignity of one's sex in certain types of situation. He will always retain a male gaze.

You ought to campaign for third spaces, services and categories for people such as your friend - like every other group has had to campaign for theirs.

Shortshriftandlethal · 13/11/2024 15:39

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:02

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

He couldn't face the world as male. Now she functions.

She is not a predator to women she is facing the predators alongside us! it's important she can use women's spaces. She also is very aware that women are fearful of her (as she is of them and has been the subject of awful comments) so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable

The fact your friend is conscious of women's responses when he uses women's spaces is indicative of the fact that he is not female.

GenerativeAIBot · 13/11/2024 15:40

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:22

So you want me to find statostics about transitioned people that aremt causing any problem? They wont exist will they?

Please answer the other questions.

your male friend does not belong in female spaces and you cannot consent for the 4 billion other women in the world

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/11/2024 15:41

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:02

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

He couldn't face the world as male. Now she functions.

She is not a predator to women she is facing the predators alongside us! it's important she can use women's spaces. She also is very aware that women are fearful of her (as she is of them and has been the subject of awful comments) so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable

If he expects to use women's spaces and insists on using women's spaces then he is providing cover for the men who are predators.

He and any other men who feel unable to use men's facilities must campaign for separate facilities that women are not obliged to share with them. And he must keep out of women's faciliites. Anything less is not "lovely" it is unethical.

GailBlancheViola · 13/11/2024 15:42

She is not a predator to women she is facing the predators alongside us!

No.

it's important she can use women's spaces.

Selfishly so for him, completely dismissing the importance of those spaces being completely male free for women.

She also is very aware that women are fearful of her

But carries on using the spaces anyway completely disregarding the feelings of the women in there as long as he is all right, Jack. For women in there to be fearful it is clear that he is very male looking.

(as she is of them and has been the subject of awful comments) so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable

He needs to either use a unisex option or start thinking about and using the male option and not under any circumstances use the female option. Why should women have to exclude themselves from the very spaces that are there for their use because they are fearful, because their safety, privacy and dignity counts as nothing compared to his?

Brefugee · 13/11/2024 15:42

the campaign for 3rd spaces would be ideal for women. And i know many many women who would join that.

But of course, that would be "women's rights" being centred and therefore automatically transphobic.

Snowypeaks · 13/11/2024 15:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Snowypeaks · 13/11/2024 15:50

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:22

So you want me to find statostics about transitioned people that aremt causing any problem? They wont exist will they?

Your friend - by your own admission - is causing a problem by being a male person in a female-only space.
You won't find any statistics about transitioned males having become female. Because it's impossible.

Snowypeaks · 13/11/2024 15:52

@Maddy70
I hope you will be able to tell us why you think your friend's comfort is worth sacrificing the safety, privacy and dignity of women?

Snowypeaks · 13/11/2024 15:57

Extraordinary. I read Maddy70's reply to me later than everyone else and I posted pretty much what everyone else had already posted...and it's been deleted! Baffled.

ETA
Just had an email about my post. Apparently it was pronouns. I thought I'd avoided them but I see they popped up in one sentence.

Ingenieur · 13/11/2024 16:02

Snowypeaks · 13/11/2024 15:57

Extraordinary. I read Maddy70's reply to me later than everyone else and I posted pretty much what everyone else had already posted...and it's been deleted! Baffled.

ETA
Just had an email about my post. Apparently it was pronouns. I thought I'd avoided them but I see they popped up in one sentence.

Edited

That puts to bed the lie further up the thread about us being able to discuss this freely online...

OP posts:
WhatterySquash · 13/11/2024 16:05

Maddy, there are nice, lovely, respectful men who aren't trans as well, who wouldn't hurt a fly. I'm sure we could find some evidence or facts about them if we try. That doesn't mean they can go in the women's toilet, changing room, hospital ward or prison cell, or sports.

These are things for women, where they can be safe, not just from actual harm, but from fear, worry, the discomfort of being watched or heard by a male. Why do you think they exist? Because women need that safety and privacy from men. A man claiming to be a woman is not just a man, he's a man pretending he knows what's like to be a woman when he actually has no clue - he hasn't lived that reality – and thinks his desire to be in their space matters more than their feelings. That makes him disrespectful, sexist and misogynist and proves he can't relate to women at all.

You know that some women, for religious reasons, reasons of past abuse etc now just self-exclude from these spaces because they can't trust them to be female-only now? They just don't go. If they have to do that, your friend and his ilk could do that instead and give them back what's theirs. That would be fair. In fact he's just doing what so many men do - putting himself and his wants before women.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/11/2024 16:05

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:02

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

He couldn't face the world as male. Now she functions.

She is not a predator to women she is facing the predators alongside us! it's important she can use women's spaces. She also is very aware that women are fearful of her (as she is of them and has been the subject of awful comments) so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable

Oops-a-daisy - I was just listening to an old podcast by the Aarons, they are so straightfoward it did something to my usually proudly impeccable (for MumsNet) pronouns. I'd better correct that in case my previous post gets deleted:

If your friend expects to use women's spaces and insists on using women's spaces then your friend is providing cover for the men who are predators.

Your friend and any men who feel unable to use men's facilities must campaign for separate facilities that women are not obliged to share with them. And your friend must keep out of women's faciliites. Anything less is not "lovely" it is unethical.

(There. Fixed it.)

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 16:06

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:02

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

He couldn't face the world as male. Now she functions.

She is not a predator to women she is facing the predators alongside us! it's important she can use women's spaces. She also is very aware that women are fearful of her (as she is of them and has been the subject of awful comments) so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable

And there it is.

"so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable"

Someone's lovely friend is the basis that all female people now must accept male people into our single sex spaces. The classic appeal to emotion that is very manipulative and frankly, many of us have been there and already understood the ramifications.

It is the final bit that is always the chaser.

To use the men's is unthinkable..... so wims! Maddy's close friend couldn't actually give a shit about what female people need, and nor can all those who support this person's actions.

Because when it comes down to it, female people will just have to suffer so that a male person doesn't have to. It is misogyny in action. Right there.

Live and let live... until something makes the male person unhappy and then female people have to suck it up.

WhatterySquash · 13/11/2024 16:07

In that case I also await immediate deletion for using male pronouns about a male.

GailBlancheViola · 13/11/2024 16:11

Maddy70's anecdote about her friend is a perfect example of the selfishness, dismissal of women and girls, the belief that women and girls are mere second class service humans purely in existence to serve males wants and wishes that is inherent in trans rights/gender ideology and it's bedfellows MRAs.

Women and girls, their feelings, their needs, their wants are just not worthy of any consideration.

Helleofabore · 13/11/2024 16:14

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:22

So you want me to find statostics about transitioned people that aremt causing any problem? They wont exist will they?

Well you don't have to. You can just go and get the % of male people in UK prisons that have declared trans identities and show us how they are that much lower than the rest of the male population. That is one way. In fact, it is a direct comparison and publicly available.

Would you like me to link you up with the UK prison statistics so you can find them? How handy it is that the UK MoJ publish transgender prisoner statistics now!

OR you could tell us all about how with certain treatments a male person's strength and physical advantage over female people make them inherently weaker than female people. Do you think that you could find that?

Another is that you can go and find a study on transgender people that has been done to look at this? Oh... that's right. The study that exists didn't show that those male people had the female rate of committing sex and violent crime at all.......

Brefugee · 13/11/2024 16:14

Snowypeaks · 13/11/2024 15:57

Extraordinary. I read Maddy70's reply to me later than everyone else and I posted pretty much what everyone else had already posted...and it's been deleted! Baffled.

ETA
Just had an email about my post. Apparently it was pronouns. I thought I'd avoided them but I see they popped up in one sentence.

Edited

i'd interested to know if it is reactive modding (eg the post is zapped after a complaint) or if the MN mods are trigger happy

WhatterySquash · 13/11/2024 16:14

here's my post again, I've redone it just in case

Maddy, there are nice, lovely, respectful REDACTED who aren't trans as well, who wouldn't hurt a fly. I'm sure we could find some evidence or facts about them if we try. That doesn't mean they can go in the women's toilet, changing room, hospital ward or prison cell, or sports.
These are things for women, where they can be safe, not just from actual harm, but from fear, worry, the discomfort of being watched or heard by a REDACTED. Why do you think they exist? Because women need that safety and privacy from REDACTED. A REDACTED claiming to be a woman is not just a REDACTED, REDACTED's a REDACTED pretending REDACTED knows what's like to be a woman when REDACTED actually has no clue - REDACTED hasn't lived that reality – and thinks REDACTED's desire to be in their space matters more than their feelings. That makes REDACTED disrespectful, sexist and misogynist and proves REDACTED can't relate to women at all.
You know that some women, for religious reasons, reasons of past abuse etc now just self-exclude from these spaces because they can't trust them to be female-only now? They just don't go. If they have to do that, your friend and REDACTED ilk could do that instead and give them back what's theirs. That would be fair. In fact REDACTED's just doing what so many REDACTED do - putting REDACTEDself and REDACTED's wants before women.

IdylicDay · 13/11/2024 16:14

Maddy70 · 13/11/2024 15:02

A very close friend of mine (boy!) (since primary school) was always super shy, facing the wall when he spoke, htper self conscious etc etc. Transitioned as a 30 year old. Now identifies as female now can live and function, holds down a job etc

He couldn't face the world as male. Now she functions.

She is not a predator to women she is facing the predators alongside us! it's important she can use women's spaces. She also is very aware that women are fearful of her (as she is of them and has been the subject of awful comments) so will always choose a non binary option if available but to use a mens is unthinkable

Ok,WHY can't he use the males, why is it 'unthinkable'? We know from transwomen themselves and gay men that transwomen are completely safe in the males, the worst they get is a smirk. One transwoman even filmed themself going into the urinals in the gents.
There is zero reason he cannot use the males. Absolutely no reason. He is a male. And we females are not Human Shields for a male with mental health issues. He has no business whatever the situation, no matter what, to ever be in a female space.

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