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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

1000 replies

Ingenieur · 10/11/2024 22:49

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

The party went into an election with policies it couldn’t defend—or even explain.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604

OP posts:
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CautiousLurker1 · 12/11/2024 21:45

izimbra · 12/11/2024 21:13

@@CautiousLurker1

so that's true for every transgender person? Including transgender adults who tell you that transitioning was absolutely the right thing for them? They're just wrong? Your daughter's situation can be generalise to all or most transgender adults? And that's why you now spend your time trying to stop - what? people having any other position on this issue than the one you hold as the parent of a very unhappy and troubled autistic child?

BTW - I also have an autistic son who has no issues around gender but also self harms and is very depressed, and another child with bipolar 1 and cancer, and another one who was raped at 14 and is only now at 25 coming into a happy life as an adult that doesn't involve self harm. Self harm and mental illness is unfortunately incredibly common in your daughter's peer group regardless of any issues they may have around gender. But none of this gives you a right to dictate how every transgender teen or adult should live their lives or how the rest of us should feel about them.

Is what true? I simply pointed out in response to your question as to whether we actually knew trans people that yes, most of us do. I’m not sure what your comments about MH are meant to imply, other than perhaps my DD’s MH issues mean she is somehow not typical of, and thus not a ‘true’ trans person? I also fail to see where I have told anyone how to feel about trans people: I simply - and I REPEAT - pointed out that most of the PPs here absolutely DO know many trans individuals deeply and intimately and this is why we have an opinion on trans children.

In addition to my child, I know of at least half a dozen of her peers who have trans identified for a significant period between the age of 13-17; one of whom recently underwent a mastectomy at 19, a procedure that was offered after she found transgenderism at 16 after a 18m inpatient stay for bipolar and suicidal ideation/attempts. But perhaps you feel her experience, her mental illness, also disqualifies her for inclusion in your definition of ‘trans’ and thus my understanding of a child I have known since she was 10 days old, who lived a few doors away and was practically family, also doesn’t qualify me to comment? Nor the hours I’ve spent holding her mother in my arms as she sobs over the maiming & disfigurement that her beautiful, gifted, ND daughter has suffered because noone thought to hold back the surgical interventions and to continue to offer psychiatric support? Perhaps as they are both girls of ‘that’ peer group, they and their friends should all be discounted as they don’t count? Do we discount all girls of their generation then? Pray, do tell, as you seem to be the self-appointed arbiter of all things trans youth related.

In passing, I also now know several 50yo plus transwomen who have been incredibly supportive and compassionate in helping me navigate this with my child (and who, every single one of them, urged caution and discouraged medical and surgical transitioning until every and all avenues had been explored, btw. Why? Because even they know that you cannot change sex, that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and that despite the fact that their surgeries initially alleviated some of their discomfort and made their lives more liveable, transitioning did not actually make them happy, did not actually fix them and they have taken decades to accept that they may never actually feel comfortable in their bodies). But perhaps you don’t feel they should have an opinion on trans teens either? Are they also outliers?

So frankly, on the basis you have absolutely no experience whatsoever of supporting a child with gender confusion, have no experience of ND girls in ‘this peer group’ with mental health issues, I would say you have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to dictate to me as to whether I can have a position on this issue. I might possibly be moved to go so far as to say that, on balance, given you seem to know absolutely fuck all on a first hand basis, that you’re not qualified to have an opinion either, but that would reek of fascism. And I’d hate to be confused with a fascist.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/11/2024 21:48

And the Democrats still need an honest conversation on gender identity.

CautiousLurker1 · 12/11/2024 21:49

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/11/2024 21:48

And the Democrats still need an honest conversation on gender identity.

Indeed. :)

Ingenieur · 12/11/2024 21:51

@izimbra

They're just wrong?

Yes

OP posts:
WhatterySquash · 12/11/2024 22:26

izimbra how do you feel about people with anorexia? If they definitely think they're fat and feel not eating is right for them... that makes them right does it? If it's different, what's the difference?

IwantToRetire · 12/11/2024 22:29

Just to say I added a post last night about a survey that was meant to show which issues were top most for voters for both of the main parties, and that "gender affirming care" was not important.

Many apologies it was meant for another thread. My fault.

So not ignoring responses, although agree a far more relevant survey would be to ask the now estimated 10 million people who had previously voted Democrat just didn't vote this time.

But I suspect they are unlikely to reveal themselves in view of the outcome of the election, as their non votes allowed Trump to "win".

Appalonia · 12/11/2024 22:33

MalagaNights · 12/11/2024 11:56

I posted this on another thread but it's relevenat here so reposting:

Polling is showing that the number 1 issue for voters who swung to Trump was the trans issue.
Not the number one issue for most voters, which was inflation and then immigration, 'culture issues' were third.

But number 1 for the voters that swung to him.

This is huge. It won him the election.

I got this from Megyn Kelly yesterday. She also brilliantly credits all the women who fought this for years who forced Trump to do it and who changed her mind.
And most of them are British 😁!

It's about 45 mins in. It is Big News. For politicians everywhere

x.com/megynkelly/status/1856162987435757932?t=znDpyv2A8SfGkSPi72nNlg&s=09

When Megyn Kelly got this, she really went for it! She's v articulate and has a huge audience. I think she had KJK on and also a story about a couple who had their child removed from them because they didn't want them to transition.

Enough4me · 12/11/2024 22:51

I cannot stand Trump.
If I lived in the US I 100% would have voted for him due to the trans issue.

lifeturnsonadime · 12/11/2024 22:57

IwantToRetire · 12/11/2024 22:29

Just to say I added a post last night about a survey that was meant to show which issues were top most for voters for both of the main parties, and that "gender affirming care" was not important.

Many apologies it was meant for another thread. My fault.

So not ignoring responses, although agree a far more relevant survey would be to ask the now estimated 10 million people who had previously voted Democrat just didn't vote this time.

But I suspect they are unlikely to reveal themselves in view of the outcome of the election, as their non votes allowed Trump to "win".

Edited

I think different polls show different things and different questions.

This one it looks like it was commissioned by the Democrats so is cannot be accused of bias towards trump/ anti transgender ideology.

https://blueprint2024.com/polling/why-trump-reasons-11-8/

The conclusions -

The results paint a clear picture: Democrats were punished for inflation, misalignment on immigration and cultural issues, and Biden. The top three reasons not to vote for Harris were:*

  1. “Inflation was too high under the Biden-Harris Administration” (+24)
  2. “Too many immigrants illegally crossed the border under the Biden-Harris Administration” (+23)
  3. “Kamala Harris is focused more on cultural issues like transgender issues rather than helping the middle class” (+17). *
Why America Chose Trump: Inflation, Immigration, and the Democratic Brand

Why America Chose Trump: Inflation, Immigration, and the Democratic Brand - Blueprint

Harris couldn’t outrun her past or her party— it was a vice grip that proved impossible to escape.

https://blueprint2024.com/polling/why-trump-reasons-11-8

lifeturnsonadime · 12/11/2024 23:03

Also 'gender affirming care' doesn't deal with the issue of the loss of women's rights and sports.

I bet a lot of people don't care if grown adults want to mutilate themselves, it's not going to be a vote changer.

I don't trust that at all as an indication of voter feelings about the loss of women's rights and fair sport.

BonfireLady · 12/11/2024 23:09

EyeofOrion · 12/11/2024 12:26

Ah well. In cybersecurity, we tend to see the world in a different light. In this world, we deal with constant attacks. Usually, these attacks aim to steal valuable data - financial, personal, military - or hold the data for ransom. This is far more common than you know. Every organisation/institution has firewalls to protect against such attacks, but the attackers can move around them. The great majority of these attacks come from China, Russia, North Korea and Iran.

Take my warning or leave it. But don’t make fun of it.

How is this related to Kamala Harris advocating for California residents' tax to be spent on "gender affirming care" for male prisoners who identify as women?

Did the Chinese/Russians/North Koreans/Iranians deepfake the footage and drop it past the firewalls of all the TV stations that ran the adverts?

EyeofOrion · 12/11/2024 23:50

BonfireLady · 12/11/2024 23:09

How is this related to Kamala Harris advocating for California residents' tax to be spent on "gender affirming care" for male prisoners who identify as women?

Did the Chinese/Russians/North Koreans/Iranians deepfake the footage and drop it past the firewalls of all the TV stations that ran the adverts?

I’ll just post this here, then. Patrushev is the former head of the FSB, and KGB. He wouldn’t say anything without Putin’s go-ahead. This is a warning to Trump.

The things you mention above are details only. What I’m talking about is the massive, coordinated effort to get Trump (and other RW governments across the globe) elected.

Snowypeaks · 12/11/2024 23:53

EyeofOrion · 12/11/2024 23:50

I’ll just post this here, then. Patrushev is the former head of the FSB, and KGB. He wouldn’t say anything without Putin’s go-ahead. This is a warning to Trump.

The things you mention above are details only. What I’m talking about is the massive, coordinated effort to get Trump (and other RW governments across the globe) elected.

The Democrats must be part of the "massive coordinated effort", then. Sterling work from them.
Putin must be so proud.

EyeofOrion · 12/11/2024 23:57

@Helleofabore

Or, as many of us suspect, using the power of the internet, women and girls have been speaking out and it is WOMEN who are amplifying their voices. WOMEN who are spreading the news stories, and making the submissions to committees and organisations and getting other women to join in. And women who are standing up and talking and being heard.
And it is women discussing it with each other in person from seeing the events happen on TV, and traditional media.
But Oh... that's right.... bots control the internet and we would not have discovered each other without those bots....

Troll farms exist, and you know it. Women talking about issues help, but in this case - unfortunately - troll farms have picked up the cause. That’s why feminism, in part, is leaning further right - because along with feminist causes, troll farms pick on a number of right-wing issues. Left-wing troll farms are rarer.

CautiousLurker1 · 12/11/2024 23:57

Just apologising for language on previous posts. Was in a bad car accident recently, with my DD in the back. Still recovering from the shock/impact and may have fewer F+++s to give at the moment when it comes to this stuff. Your life flashing before your eyes as a paramedic checks you for concussion tends to have that effect, it seems.

Will try to do better next time…

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/11/2024 23:59

You have no need to apologise @CautiousLurker1 and I hope you and your daughter are ok Flowers

EyeofOrion · 13/11/2024 00:01

Snowypeaks · 12/11/2024 23:53

The Democrats must be part of the "massive coordinated effort", then. Sterling work from them.
Putin must be so proud.

Edited

Oops, thanks Snowy - I omitted the image.

You do need the opposite side, anyway, to mount an attack.

The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity
CautiousLurker1 · 13/11/2024 00:04

Yes, thanks Erish - mummy is just a tad cranky at the moment, though. I think DD had a bit of a light bulb moment too, realising that life is a wee bit fragile and that we were lucky to walk away from it (well, limp, I have stress fractures in my toes/foot LOL). She’s been very focused on her college applications in the last few weeks and thinking about her ‘future’.

Bit of a radical approach to ‘waking’ your child up to reality, so wouldn’t recommend it in the first instance 😬

Datun · 13/11/2024 00:06

CautiousLurker1 · 12/11/2024 23:57

Just apologising for language on previous posts. Was in a bad car accident recently, with my DD in the back. Still recovering from the shock/impact and may have fewer F+++s to give at the moment when it comes to this stuff. Your life flashing before your eyes as a paramedic checks you for concussion tends to have that effect, it seems.

Will try to do better next time…

Your posts are brilliant, cautious.

Articulate, moving, and clearly straight from the heart. Please don't apologise for anything.

CautiousLurker1 · 13/11/2024 00:11

Not sure I understand the extent to which troll farms may have influenced the US elections (my knowledge is very much based on crappy US films), but if Putin/Russia could be argued to have meddled for Trump, wouldn’t it have been in China’s interests to stop him and support the Democrats? I understand the notion of it but can’t see how in reality it would actually have the seismic impact people talk about? After all, 16m fewer people voted this time, indicating that people were not only not convinced by an particular campaign (notably the Dems, as they lost 14m votes) but sufficiently unenamoured that they didn’t bother to vote at all?

Ingenieur · 13/11/2024 00:16

Cryptic, distracting puff from Eye.

If foreign powers are manipulating a culture war then the source is the Democrat side as they are the ones espousing this nonsense.

You can't blame feminists for fighting back, nor those interested in defending children, or those unwilling to bend the knee to the authoritarianism on display.

And feminism leaning Right? Pull the other one: feminism is about removing hierarchies, it is a fundamentally non-conservative worldview.

OP posts:
EyeofOrion · 13/11/2024 00:19

CautiousLurker1 · 13/11/2024 00:11

Not sure I understand the extent to which troll farms may have influenced the US elections (my knowledge is very much based on crappy US films), but if Putin/Russia could be argued to have meddled for Trump, wouldn’t it have been in China’s interests to stop him and support the Democrats? I understand the notion of it but can’t see how in reality it would actually have the seismic impact people talk about? After all, 16m fewer people voted this time, indicating that people were not only not convinced by an particular campaign (notably the Dems, as they lost 14m votes) but sufficiently unenamoured that they didn’t bother to vote at all?

China are in a loose axis with Russia/Iran/North Korea/Belarus/Turkiye and some other smaller countries, so it’s unlikely they would assist the Democrats.

Best wishes to you and your DD after your accident 💐

EyeofOrion · 13/11/2024 00:23

Ingenieur · 13/11/2024 00:16

Cryptic, distracting puff from Eye.

If foreign powers are manipulating a culture war then the source is the Democrat side as they are the ones espousing this nonsense.

You can't blame feminists for fighting back, nor those interested in defending children, or those unwilling to bend the knee to the authoritarianism on display.

And feminism leaning Right? Pull the other one: feminism is about removing hierarchies, it is a fundamentally non-conservative worldview.

Where have I blamed anyone for fighting back?

Unfortunately, I think the US is going to find out what authoritarianism really is a few months. Pretending the Democrats are autocratic is silly in comparison.

And yes, feminism is leaning Right. This thread and others like it is clear proof.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 13/11/2024 00:27

EyeofOrion · 12/11/2024 23:57

@Helleofabore

Or, as many of us suspect, using the power of the internet, women and girls have been speaking out and it is WOMEN who are amplifying their voices. WOMEN who are spreading the news stories, and making the submissions to committees and organisations and getting other women to join in. And women who are standing up and talking and being heard.
And it is women discussing it with each other in person from seeing the events happen on TV, and traditional media.
But Oh... that's right.... bots control the internet and we would not have discovered each other without those bots....

Troll farms exist, and you know it. Women talking about issues help, but in this case - unfortunately - troll farms have picked up the cause. That’s why feminism, in part, is leaning further right - because along with feminist causes, troll farms pick on a number of right-wing issues. Left-wing troll farms are rarer.

Ah, so it's "women shut up, show a united face, you may have a point but your grievences give succor to our enemies so better to stay silent for now. Justice for you will have to wait until [insert current more important issue] is done but never fear, when [current battle] is won, we will finally be able to look at making things better for you"

'Twas ever thus.

Women, shut up, because you empower transphobes!
Women, shut up, because the troll farms are using your issues to sow discontent!
Women, shut up, the men need you to!

Why is it never - "Let's support the women so this issue can't become a wedge for bad actors!"?

Snowypeaks · 13/11/2024 00:29

@EyeofOrion

I see. So the Democrats, their policies and campaign strategies must have been the "certain forces" Trump relied on to get elected. They did a great job and, apparently, for free.

You remind me of the apologists in the last years of apartheid South Africa wailing about Communist influences. I'm sure there were plenty of Communists around, but the black majority didn't need Communists to tell them that they didn't have the vote.

Being in favour of women having rights (as a discrete sex class) and being against the pointless medicalisation of children and vulnerable adults is not "leaning right". Women's rights and child safeguarding are not "right wing" just because the Democrats don't support them.

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