The Democrats Need an Honest Conversation on Gender Identity

[Ingenieur]

An interesting article in The Atlantic today, and a sign the tide might be turning in the USA.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/11/democrats-dishonest-gender-conversation-2024-election/680604/

Most voters think that biological sex is real, and that it matters in law and policy. Instructing them to believe otherwise, and not to ask any questions, is a doomed strategy. By shedding their most extreme positions, the Democrats will be better placed to defend transgender Americans who want to live their lives in peace.

Baby steps

Is that for real???

Slightly off topic but on topic ....
Today's Gov "daily chat" was all about "woke."

If anyone wants to get some views across

Example of the qs below....

"It's going to be fascinating to see if/ how long it takes the left to extricate themselves from the insanity"

There have always been transgender people just like there have always been gay people.

The question is how much we as a society confer rights on them that allow them to live life on their own terms. There are still many countries where people feel EXACTLY the same about homosexuality as GC's here feel about transgender: that it's a sickness, that it's dangerous, that it's damaging to gender norms and to society at large, and that the law needs to work towards crushing it out of existence through repression, social stigma etc.

The left has traditionally been 'on the side' of minorities. Can't see it changing.

Since it was celebrated on Pink News at the time, it's safe to say it's real: https://archive.ph/9yQMJ

The question is how much we as a society confer rights on them that allow them to live life on their own terms.

Zero. The can do what everyone else does, live lives that as a compromise respecting the rights of others.

The left has traditionally been 'on the side' of minorities. Can't see it changing.
Middle-aged white men are not a vulnerable minority but they make up (or at least they did) the majority of trans people. Until the left understands that there is no definition of trans that realistically only refers to a vulnerable minority this argument is really moot.

😲 crikey. Thanks for posting as an archive

Of course he doesn't. Hardly any president ever has.

The general public are completely familiar with men who run countries being sexist twats who treat women like objects.

It's not going to make many people think what the ever loving fuck?? Sad though that is.

Providing rapists with incarcerated women as part of their sentence, and decimating women's sport IS.

It really shouldn't be that bloody difficult. Hardly anyone thinks that transgenderism is even sane.

They think politicians have lost the bloody plot.

A bloke denigrating women and using them as sex objects is just same old, same old.

It should not been the monumental work it appears to have been to field a candidate who looks better.

For the love of God.

That is difficult to believe. Does she know he carries tampax around to offer to women and girls in their toilets, and calls vaginas Barbie pouches?

She's calling him courageous, says he's breaking barriers and is inspiring !

What the fuck does she think of women and girls? Seriously? If she thinks he's being an authentic one??

Stephanie Davis Arai of Transgender Trend said young girls look at people Mulvaney, and then look at themselves, and think if that's a girl what the fuck am I?

When you look at it like that, there's barely a fag paper between the sexism of Trump and the sexism of Harris.

Yet another instance of someone leveraging homosexuality to support an argument that says it doesn't exist.

The hypocrisy never ends.

The question is how much we as a society confer rights on them that allow them to live life on their own terms

No. This is a misrepresentation that is often thrown up to hide the truth that what trans people are asking for, what trans rights are fundamentally delivering, is the right to redefine other people on their terms.

Think about it. Really think about it.

No one cares what a trans woman thinks about himself on the inside, or how he dresses.

It's only the point that that self image requires others to accomodate his self-defined womanhood that the problems arises.

For a trans wonen to be legally or socially accepted as "a woman", it means accepting that "a woman" is something mental not physical. It imposes on every single woman (in the original sex-based meaning) a mental stereotype that they may not agree with, that may not be at all how they see themselves.

Similarly, when a trans woman appropriates women's rights or spaces in support of his own self image, when he takes those rights and support as his own because of what he feels a woman to be, he undermines the basis on which they came to exist in the first place. And that affects all women.

LGB people and people who call themselves trans already have exactly the same rights as everyone else.

Hoorah!

The left can now stand down and stop fighting dragons...

It will collapse quickly.

It was only held together by insults and threats

It’s hard to overestimate the significance of one of the two main political parties in the USA taking leave of its senses, adopting beliefs that have no basis in reality and systematically disadvantaging the female half of the population as a result.

Providing some examples of these rights would be useful to substantiate your argument.

I think it'll take longer than we think and they'll tear themsleves apart doing it.

They sold their soul to this, changed language, chnaged reporting rules, staked their integrity and identity to it. And they have a core who are true beleivers who won't let it go without raging.

Eventually though, someone sensible will take the helm and it'll all be a sad memory, and everyone will pretend it 'wasn't that signifcnat' or 'the Chinese made us do it' 😂

True. I look forward to the post sweep up, like post McCarthy

That’s so nauseating. And I’ve always thought that if I were American, I’d be a true blue Democrat.

The question is how much we as a society confer rights on them that allow them to live life on their own terms.

You can't actually change your sex. It's not reasonable to expect everyone to pretend that you have, regardless of the circumstances.

It's not reasonable to impose your quasi religious belief system on non believers.

it's damaging to gender norms

Which are precisely those things that gender critical/sex realist people don’t give a jot about. And “gender identity” (whatever it is) is entirely different from same sex attraction.

You really don’t understand this, do you?

Ther have always been some people, predominantly men, who have wanted to present, for whatever reason, as the opposite sex - some even going so far as to have their genitalia surgically removed.

There have always been people, male and female, who are same sex attracted

Also

There are still many countries where people feel EXACTLY the same about homosexuality as GC's here feel about transgender: that it's a sickness, that it's dangerous, that it's damaging to gender norms and to society at large, and that the law needs to work towards crushing it out of existence through repression, social stigma etc.

Tell me you don't understand Gender Critical Feminism without telling me you don't understand Gender Critical Feminism 🙄

it's damaging to gender norms - Gender Critical Feminism is Critical of gender norms! It's kind of in the name? The GC issue with transgender identities is not the trans bit, it's the gender bit. We think the concept of mental gender, whether it's the one traditionally aligned to your sex or to the opposite sex, is just a sexist social construct that limits both women and men. Challenging those norms is a good thing!

crushing it out of existence through repression, social stigma etc

Wrong again! We think the existence of gender is crushing! We want the law to refrain from reifying sexist gender concepts, and remove social stigma so people do not feel they have to perform a medical or social ritual of "transition" to be who they actually always where.

We think it's terrible how trans activists have got it so wrong that gender non-conforming people are being convinced they are hated and feared and by this lead into self destructive physical acts and emotional patterns.

.

I love this kind of response.

It proves beyond all reasonable doubt that you cannot formulate a coherent argument.