This is why so many women voted Trump

[BabyLlamaZen]

I’m not saying it’s right, I’m not saying it’s worth the horrors of the Trump administration (and what other women’s rights will be abolished). However, I can also empathise. Books like this are everywhere in baby sections of bookshops in USA. My american friend is naturally more conservative than myself although hated Trump and didn’t vote for him previously (she abstained and then she went Biden although she says she seriously regrets) and this time she voted Trump. She said this stuff is now everywhere and it’s constant. She also showed me a baby’s ABC book which included B for bisexual (and literally then described it as people who are sexually attracted to either gender). For babies.

Sorry - “He’s a man!” Not It’s.

Yes I agree with both points. I heard the Pelosi comment earlier

American culture, both workplace and socially, seems to struggle with the concept of substantial & paid maternity leave.

The history of employment rights (specifically for women) in America are so different than in Europe.

Just coming back to this now @BonfireLady sorry to be tardy, but here you are: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/01/politics/trump-federal-abortion-ban/index.html

https://apnews.com/article/trump-harris-vance-walz-debate-2024-election-abortion-64c739e99ffa1ad51b973e420e1fe92d

He has also said this in clips of speeches since that I have seen.

Neverthless, lots of column inches on how he could ban abortion at the federal level with literally no basis in truth. Trump originally said he'd support the Florida pro-choice bill too, but then did a U-turn (I'm guessing due to pressure from anti-abortion donors).

IIRC one of the reasons RBG was against Roe as the way to gain the right to abortion was because of the rabid political atmosphere it created, becoming a 'left vs right' or 'Republican vs Democrat' issue. She felt that it needed to be something that was decided by society outside of political partisanship. I think she was right.

I suspect there are many people who are voting anti-abortion because that's their 'team' identity who absolutely do not want women dying at 20 weeks of gestation due to inadequate healthcare as doctors too scared to perform life saving procedures.

It's a political football. It being a political football does not help save women's lives because it further entrenches people who might be persuadable to the pro-choice position. Trump has ALSO repeatedly said (as well as that he'd veto any proposed federal abortion ban) that this is for 'the states to decide'. He is the one trying to take the heat out of the national argument and remove this as a partisan political issue, Harris is doing the opposite.

But bloody hell he's orange in that picture! I wonder if it's doctored? If not, you'd think he could buy slightly better quality fake tan with his money?!!

You're probably correct that most women want to be mothers. However, I don't think most women want some rando politician making reproductive choices for them. Women want to be treated as adults and to have the freedom to do what is best for themselves and their families.

Surely what this election outcome has identified is that what women vote for is not monolithic, nor solely based on their ability to get pregnant?

We will get. . . transgender insanity the hell out of our schools, and we will keep men out of women’s sports,” Donald Trump said to roaring applause at his Madison Square Garden rally a week before the election.

1% of 400 mil is 4 million. That’s way too many autogynephiles for my liking.

Trump is a brute but him derailing the trans train is a brilliant silver lining and I am celebrating this small win.

There’s another TRA on others threads calling everyone transphobes (and not answering much else) who say trans people make up such a minute number it has absolutely no impact at all. On women’s rights, sports and all the rest.

Wish they’d get together and crunch some numbers.

Thank you @Tandora for making it clear why the Democrats have built a wall against winning.

It seems cultural (transgender) issues were the third reason the Democrats lost. I've said this many times but the political/media class vastly underestimated people's concern over this, especially when they started going after children.
As a slight aside, I am no lover of Trump but people don't seem to consider that he might be genuinely alarmed by what has been going on as much as we have.
Why America Chose trump

Sorry I was out of action this evening, I meant to return to this.

whether your body is designed around the production of large or small gametes ..." "Small gamete producers" and "large gamete producers" are both shorthand for the above.

“designed” and “shorthand” are key: I entirely agree with you. But the idea of “design” is value laden- religious almost. It conveys an idea of how things were meant to be. That’s not how evolution works. Evaluation is simply a string of random mutations that exist within particular environmental conditions. We can argue about what was “meant to be” , but what matters really is what is.

As for “shorthand”- agree- this is a shorthand. What we have is an oversimplification.

In 2016 when Trump won in the aftermath of Brexit, I felt horror and despair. I thought it was a possibility but still thought American could 'see the light'.

This time round I felt just fed up and totally expected it. I'm kinda 'well what the fuck did you expect?' in terms of the Democrats who have proved to be totally clueless for eight eights in getting way Trump has got so much traction.

I think thats it for me, there's SO many areas the Democrats have fucked up in terms of strategy and I don't just mean in terms of the election campaign. It isn't just one issue.

The writing was firmly on the wall in 2020. The numbers just didn't work for another term. Areas of weakness in that sense were just left to rot or doubled down on rather than looking for consenus building.

My attitude this time around isn't with Trump supporters. Its with Democrat senior figures and decision makings and their clueless supporters. I'm angry that they've been so arrogant, blinkered and sanctimonious that they literally can not see where they've gone wrong, when to the average voter on the ground its so fucking obvious.

The main takeaway from the data though is a simple one - Dems stayed home whilst Republicans turned up.

That alone just says how much DEMOCRAT SUPPORTERS have been turned off by the Democrats. This isn't about what Trump has or hasn't done at all. Its very firmly an internal Democrat mentality where they couldn't see beyond their own self importance.

And the biggest cause of that?

They aren't willing to listen to grass roots. They just told them to shut up in a various different ways over a number of subjects.

The trans thing stands out particularly, because one of the mantra for so long was literally 'no debate' - the single biggest anti-democratic/ anti-free speech slogan you can come with. And they STILL aren't buying why this isn't going down well.

Political parties that don't listen are doomed to fail.

Trump on the other hand, in order to further his own agenda, has listened. Its difficult to dispute, because he followed concerns. Whether he will action any of this remains to be seen, but he HAS listened and thats what has got ultimately rewarded.

I don't like the man in the slightest, but the Dems have done such a spectacular job of turning off people who naturally lean blue it needs stressing and highlighting repeatedly.

This is a Democrat problem not a Trump problem.

Thats really the difference between 2016 and now for me.

I think we underestimate the amount of interference and outright control Russia and even China have had over the Western world over a number of years. I’ve linked an article below the discusses the trans issue in Russia in particular. It’s a long one, but it’s fascinating. In short, this is a society that could be ours if we continue on this path of choosing authoritarianism to solve culture wars.

https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/putin-brings-americas-culture-wars-to-russians/

It's got FUCK ALL to do with Russia or China and everything to do with voter grievances.

As much as they may or may not amplify these, the underlying problems are not.

This is just another shit excuse to avoid dealing with the above mentioned underlying problems that are very real and people are facing on a daily basis and affect them greatly.

People who spout off about interference are all about ignoring the widening gap between those who are comfortable and those who are not.

I said I would finish.

There are only, and exactly two, gametes (sperm and egg), therefore only, and exactly two, sexes. Small gamete producers are known as males, large gamete producers as female.

To add to what I said previously - there are two gametes (sperm and egg) - as far as we know- yes . But it does not logically follow “there are only , exactly , two sexes”. “Sex” is a property of a person (or animal). People are not gametes and gametes are not people.

Recognition of sex is instinctive in animals, including in humans. It is very rarely necessary to see genitals or test chromosomes in order to recognise the sex of adults.

The first part of this statement is vague and needs clarification- what do you mean exactly.

The second part of the statement is true. It is also true that we have invented all kinds of social and cultural signifiers of sex- how we dress/ hairstyle etc- that are overwhelmingly adhered to and socially dominant. Why do you think this is? Why did we invent these- across so many cultures and points of history. Why are they so important , and why do people adhere to them so strictly?
The argument I had with my 5 yr old the other day went- her: “girls are pretty”; me: “boys can be pretty too”; her: “but only girls wear dresses”; me: “but boys can wear dresses too”; her: “but that would be weird”.

Your penis does not decide your sex - you develop a penis because you are male and sexual development in the womb has proceeded normally.
Your chromosomes do not determine your sex. XY and XX karyotypes have become shorthand for male and female in the same way as penises and vaginas have. But that is evidence of sex, not sex itself. Sex in humans (ie which gametes you are designed to produce) is determined by the SRY gene, which is almost always located on the Y chromosome. It is the determiner of whether the fertilised egg will develop along the male or the female pathway. Hence the XY and XX shorthand.

this is all very ideological and confused, but also contains some facts. It’s hard to unpack- but better to start again. Sex development starts with karyotype . Until recently it was the view that the “default” developmental pathway was female, and the determiner of whether you develop as male was the presence or not of the SRY gene. That has now been challenged as too simplistic. One can easily see how it’s infused with cultural meaning and gender stereotypes right? Male development determined by an active presence - female development- the passive absence.

Either way karyotype conveys information about sexual development and instructs the body regarding the production of certain hormones. These hormones then stimulate the development of various sexual characteristics- there is a dominant , expected development pathway, however , there are also variations in the ways that bodies produce and respond to these hormones. These variations shape the architecture of our internal and external sexual and reproductive organs.

For the most part the development pathway is predictable. For example- people with xy chromosomes will produce androgens , which stimulate the development of testes , which produce sperm cells and a penis.

Since much of this development is inside the body, What we usually can observe is simply the external genitals - at birth- and this is the basis on which sex is “observed” (/“assigned” and recorded.) we assume the typical developmental pathway- but this is not always the case.

DETERMINATION OF SEX AND SEXUAL DEVELO
Your genitals are excellent evidenceof your sex because they correlate to the gametes your body is supposed to produce. A penis is the delivery system for sperm, for example. But it is not the case that your genitals (or your chromosomes, for that matter) are your sex, or decide what sex you are.

I agree with all of this except the word “supposed.” What is “supposed”? Gods design? Means nothing,

Sexual development in utero is a complex and finely tuned process and very occasionally goes wrong - sometimes very awry. In a subset of those cases, genitals can be ambiguous at birth and so it is not possible to deduce the baby's sex from them. That is when other tests are used to determine the sex of the baby.

complex , yes. What do you mean by “wrong”? Again a value judgement - “gods design” - that not how evolution works. Evolution is random. Things are not “right” or “wrong” , they simply “are”. There is a norm, and variations of that norm; how common the variations are are a matter of scientific debate (no consensus on this) and a function of existing technologies.

I’m getting tired. I’ll continue later if I can
x

The conversation on here about whether or not Harris' focus on abortion will have resonated with all women voters reminds me of things I read decades ago by womanist and black feminist thinkers (and I'm sorry I can't remember any authors names).
They talked about the fact that "reproductive freedoms" automatically refers to the right to access an abortion for white feminists.
Whereas, for black women, it just as much refers to the right to bring a pregnancy to term - to not be forcibly sterilised or coerced into an abortion.
I think there's lots of talk among progressive feminists about how intersectional the movement is now in its political analysis. But I think it's incredibly monocultural and single-storyed, compared with the second wave.

I’m getting tired

We all are. It’s tiring having to refute anti scientific nonsense.

And now we have claims of Russian interference on trans issues 🙄

Was it the Russians who planted Lia Thomas on the University of Pennsylvania swim team?

Was it the Russians who raped a girl in the bathrooms at a school in Loudoun County?

Was it the Russians who mobilised a left wing mob to attack Riley Gaines at San Francisco University? Was that some sort of false flag operation then?

Is Rachel Levine a Russian stooge, deliberately meddling with WPATH’s Standards of Care publication to remove age limits on surgery to “rile up” Americans?

There is no “culture war”. There is only dismissive claims of one from the Left who don’t want any sunlight on these issues.

Trans ideology requires consideration of legislation, at all levels of government. It requires health organisations to appraise evidence. Medical controversies regularly make news. The only “culture war” is pretending there’s nothing to discuss.

To add to what I said previously - there are two gametes (sperm and egg) - as far as we know- yes

You think there is potentially another hiding away? Which reproductive role would this as yet undiscovered gamete have, do you think?

No. I was just acknowledging that what we “know” can never be taken as absolute if we want to take the scientific method seriously. It is always a function of the best evidence we have at this time and that is always changing.

Do you think the nhs gives “male” children “female hormones” to “force their (male) bodies to mimic female development” just for shits and giggles?

If it makes you happy to call these children “male” - go for it- as cruel and erroneous as that is- it has no material relevance.

But what you really need to understand that these children are given “female” hormones for their health and development- to help them live the best and happiest life possible- as all children deserve- even if their body doesn’t fit your particular idea of how bodies should/ were meant. to be.

Yes, chemically castrating and removing the sexual function and fertility of boys by blockers and cross sex hormones is incredibly cruel.