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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

US Election results

529 replies

IwantToRetire · 06/11/2024 01:26

Kamala Harris 27
45.2% popular vote
12,768,875 votes

Donald Trump 99
53.8% popular vote
15,275,564 votes

270 to win

U.S. election results 2024 | CBC News

6/11/2024 @ 01:25 GMT

U.S. election results 2024

Get live results from the U.S. presidential race between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. See if the Democrats or Republicans win control of the House and the Senate.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/us/2024/results/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Appalonia · 06/11/2024 23:10

Look, if even Andrew Tate is speaking truth, we have a problem...

https://twitter.com/Cobratate/status/1854050206943264798?s=19

x.com

https://twitter.com/Cobratate/status/1854050206943264798?s=19

duc748 · 06/11/2024 23:10

Appalonia · 06/11/2024 23:04

THAT is exactly the problem!

To be fair, @Appalonia , they may be getting back to that, maybe, right now.

capitanaamerica · 06/11/2024 23:12

Appalonia · 06/11/2024 23:04

THAT is exactly the problem!

Is it? Because I'm very critical of the erosion of women's rights in the USA and the opportunistic use of "trans rights" to impose misogynistic practices. But the claim that Kamala Harris spent so much time and energy propagandising for genderism is alien to me. I've actually seen this work AGAINST Kamala; she repeatedly denied claims for men to get gender-affirming help when she was AG of California, and earlier of San Francisco.

So, can you substantiate your claim?

TrumptonsFireEngine · 06/11/2024 23:13

The other thing about abortion is that overturning Roe v Wade has returned the decision to the states themselves. So the states with a ban are those where the majority of voters support a ban, and vice versa.

Lalgarh · 06/11/2024 23:16

Newsnight also said that Harris got less overall votes from women than Biden in 2020.so clearly they aren't voting on abortion access

duc748 · 06/11/2024 23:20

Morgan taking full opportunity to brown-nose left, right, and centre.

MrGHardy · 06/11/2024 23:46

Hey, on the plus side, stocks went vroom, I am 6% richer than I was yesterday.

ps that's a joke, while true, they will fall again, when he inevitably shotguns inflation again with tariffs and does god-knows what else.

lemonstolemonade · 06/11/2024 23:46

@RedToothBrush

Totally agree - some do try to argue with it by saying (a la Dawn Butler), "but the people the tories have elected are not REAL women, minorities etc etc", which is grossly offensive, as if people have to think a particular way because of their characteristics - this thinking is why the democrats are in such a state, as they took for granted that special categories of people would break for them because the democrats "knew what was best for them".

The Labour Party needs to be extremely careful - the red wall stung them on this before and will do this again. No party has an automatic claim on a demographic.

duc748 · 06/11/2024 23:49

There's very little sign that they're listening, though.

IwantToRetire · 07/11/2024 00:34

TrumptonsFireEngine · 06/11/2024 22:29

I mean did the Republicans chose Trump or did he just impose himself on them?!

Trump had to win the primaries in order to become their candidate. He didn’t just walk into the role. Harris, on the other hand, did once Biden stepped down and many Democrats were not happy with not being given to opportunity to choose.

I didn't mean that literally, but because he is as much if not more a personality than a party hack, he just used the system to steam roller his way through. Did many other stand to be selected to run for President for the Republican.

And yes, although I expressed it differently, Harris got shoed in as much because Biden (and the Democrats) didn't deal with the issue of his age maybe making him vulnerably, unfit.

But having left it that late, it would have been very hard to not have Harris. Though as it turned out, if the Democrats had gone through some sort more speedy than usual process to get a new Candidate it might have helped Harris be seen as more than a continuation of Biden. The vote against, or lack of votes, is seen by some as much about how some feel about the Biden administration. She made no effort, or was stopped, from making any effort to differentiate herself.

But as was said at the time the Presidential race started, that fact that both parties had 2 senior citizen white males was very disconcerting.

OP posts:
duc748 · 07/11/2024 00:39

But having left it that late, it would have been very hard to not have Harris.

Yes. If the Dems, at the last minute, had dumped KH and installed a white guy, how good a look would that have been? So they were a bit screwed. But obviously, Biden should have stepped down much earlier.

IwantToRetire · 07/11/2024 00:41

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2024 22:16

My lecturer, who over the years, I've come to respect and admire as I've grown older said to us as undergraduates:

"I suspect you are all here thinking about how cool you are and how you've all got it sussed about how the world should be. And you all are really leftie and think the Daily Mail should be banned. Well one day you might need the Daily Mail."

He then went on to lecture us about gatekeeping and who gatekeeps the gatekeepers. Who controls censorship and why we should really consider this and what it says about power and control. Freedom can't exist with excessive censorship. It's impossible because you had power to people in order to enforce against the population. It's at odds with the essence of the public holding power to account by removing their ability to do so.

At the time, I was indeed very much 'this is right and this is wrong' and I was on an internet community forum where we didn't all get out and a bunch of my friends (who were initially internet friends but became real life friends), to my horror and frustration, would often post things I didn't like and thought were offensive. A couple of them were eventually given moderation powers by the guy who ran the site (who I was also friends with) but I never was.

At the time it annoyed me and I felt hard done by that I wasn't listened to and was overlooked for having that power.

But in hindsight my lecturer was absolutely right and I'd have been a terrible terrible mod and the power would have gone to my head.

I now sit at a point waivering between thinking that censorship should be as light and as limited as possible and only where fundamentally necessary and no censorship. Neither of these options fully satisfy me for their own obvious drawbacks.

My lecture was in 1998 and at the time the internet really was the wild west without so much as a Google search filter.

I sit and reflect on the journey I've been on with the concept of gatekeeping and really understanding what it means. My 19 year old self didn't fully appreciate it, though the lecture definitely struck a chord and I've never ever forgotten it.

I grew up. And I'm 46 now and I get it.

The Democrats still haven't got it. For all the talk of democracy and the constitution etc etc, they have forgotten the underpinning principles of freedom of speech holding power to account and in taking and trying to use censorship and control on the population they've empowered Trump to harass this and use it in his own way against the interests of the people.

My point is the democrats are full of educated, middle class mid level management who want to control their subordinates. Trump saw this and understood the grievance that it's been causing. And weaponised it because the Democrats couldn't see their own self righteous hypocrisy. And weren't being held to account in the eyes of many.

I find it hard because do not share the same beliefs and culture as so many Trump supporters - who are genuinely nice and good people and totally not Nazis. They just have different views to me. And equally I am alarmed and disturbed by the whole narrative of the Democrats to demonise, smear, censor and refuse to even consider different perspectives because they've been so wrapped up in the idea that they are right and they are good.

I truly believe that the majority of people are good. Some fuck up, but inherently they mean well and perhaps have the wrong or different priorities. But they arent 'full of hate'.

And that's really where the Democrats have messed up. With arrogance and believing we should all live a certain way. The lack of tolerance and the authoritarian censorship and lies are not exclusive to the Republican party.

And it's ordinary people who understand this in a way that so many university educated people aren't grasping.

I'm not sure I'd see what I see now but for that 2 hour session 25 years ago.

There was an understanding and balance of power over censorship until social media and since then we've seen a battleground for power over who are the gatekeepers. Elon Musk buying twitter exemplifies the entire point. He bought it because he understood the value of it wasn't in its advertising revenue. Even if it makes a loss on paper it doesn't necessarily make HIM a loss. Not now.

Why is it that the first buildings the US bombs when it takes military action against another country or enemy is it's communication hq?

Today is hard. Really hard. I've seen it coming for a good while and it doesn't remotely surprise me.

Hitler promised bread and work. He didn't get elected because the priority was to kill the Jews and an agenda of hate. They became the scapegoat and something to build power and control from. They were mined for resources. He understood the priorities of those at the bottom who brought him power are always food, work and housing first. People struggling with them always leaves a democracy vulnerable to those who make the same sort of promise and identify their priority. Their priority isn't a concept of democracy, their priority is paying the bills and feeding their family. And it always will be.

You won't win an election if you pit the fuzzy and intellectual complex concept of democracy head to head with a under educated public who are acutely aware of declining standards of living and the likelihood, are struggling to pay bills and that they will not achieve as well as their parents generation. Why? Because mathematics.

Why didn't the Democrats see this?

Biden's victory of margin was incredibly slim. Incumbent parties very very rarely increase their vote share before losing office. They were swimming uphill against the current from the word go from 2020. This is the same position Labour are in now. They'd be monumentally stupid if they don't look at this election and understand the WHY present here.

Why would someone who didn't graduate high school vote for Trump who has the vocabulary of a 9 year old over Harris who is university educated and has a huge vocabulary? Really? Is it that hard to see and understand this?

This could have been written about UK politics. Firstly when Labour lost the Red Wall, and then this year when the Tories lost, but Labour won with less votes than the election when Corbyn was leader of the Labour Party.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 07/11/2024 00:49

2020 Biden 81,284,666 Trump 74,224,319
2024 Harris 67,569,249 Trump 72,293,136 NB not all votes counted

So looks at bit like the UK, where Tories lost rather than Labour won.

OP posts:
TrumptonsFireEngine · 07/11/2024 01:18

IwantToRetire · 07/11/2024 00:34

I didn't mean that literally, but because he is as much if not more a personality than a party hack, he just used the system to steam roller his way through. Did many other stand to be selected to run for President for the Republican.

And yes, although I expressed it differently, Harris got shoed in as much because Biden (and the Democrats) didn't deal with the issue of his age maybe making him vulnerably, unfit.

But having left it that late, it would have been very hard to not have Harris. Though as it turned out, if the Democrats had gone through some sort more speedy than usual process to get a new Candidate it might have helped Harris be seen as more than a continuation of Biden. The vote against, or lack of votes, is seen by some as much about how some feel about the Biden administration. She made no effort, or was stopped, from making any effort to differentiate herself.

But as was said at the time the Presidential race started, that fact that both parties had 2 senior citizen white males was very disconcerting.

Apparently there were more than 400 registered Republican presidential candidates though their numbers slimmed down pretty quick and Trump dominated.

I think the lack of primaries was harmful to Harris in another way - it meant she didn’t test her policies even against her own party candidates.

TempestTost · 07/11/2024 02:03

IwantToRetire · 06/11/2024 20:18

Yes I did, and on reflection makes me think I was so mistaken to think US women would be angry enough about abortion to vote for her.

So all those women activists who organise around "women's issue" to get women's votes, are maybe make a mistake. Hmm

This is a really common mistake that women who see themselves as feminists make - they think all or most women think what they do about abortion - at least deep down.

It's just not true though, women are about as likely, or maybe even a little more likely, to be pro-life as pro-choice. And anecdotally, all of the most serious committed pro-life activists I've encountered have been women.

I don't know if feminists think this is some kind of self-delusion or coercion or what, but it's actually really simple - they think its a moral issue of significance.

So while protecting abortion rights might get some women to the polls, it will have the opposite effect for a good number as well.

TempestTost · 07/11/2024 02:08

IwantToRetire · 06/11/2024 20:49

You dont seem to have understood what I said.

People can agree an outcome but coming from very different positions.

Feminist who base their view point on women's sex based rights and therefore oppose the concept that you can change sex, having nothing what so ever in common with someone who is basing their response on preserving masculine vs. feminine roles, behaviour.

Surely this doesn't need to be spelt out on a feminist forum like FWR?

ie women's sex based rights include the right to abortion so to claim a right winger who oppose TW in women's sport is doing it for the same reason as feminists, is just not plausible.

And if, which seems possible, Republican anti trans policies are then bundled in with anti gay and lesbian policies, I would really hope no one on FWR would think that was okay.

I think this is completely wrong.

People on the right have plenty in common with the left on these issues.

They don't like men in women's sports because it is unfair, and unsafe.

They don't like saying men are women because it's stupid, and unsafe, and puts women at risk.

I really don't understand why you think those things are different, they are the normal human response.

TempestTost · 07/11/2024 02:20

ThreeWordHarpy · 06/11/2024 23:07

In terms of absolute numbers of votes, am I right in thinking Trump had about the same number he did in 2020, but Harris got significantly less than Biden did?

which I interpret to mean that Trumps base isn’t growing (which is a silver lining?), but swing voters who were swayed by Biden in 2020 didn’t like Harris and didn’t feel strongly enough anti-Trump to overcome that dislike. So they stayed at home rather than vote at all.

So it’s not quite as bad as I initially thought.

I think that's somewhat accurate.

The Democrats have been losing voters every election since Obama. Harris seems to have been a bit more of a drop but it's in line with the general trend.

IIRC the Republicans did continue to gain Latino voters and black voters.

IwantToRetire · 07/11/2024 02:33

I really don't understand why you think those things are different, they are the normal human response.

Because this is a feminist forum where those who believe in the fact that women are discriminated against as a sex class by the male sex class have a political analysis to the trans agenda.

We aren't just rellying on "human responses". First of all because the "be kind" agenda has made this the "human response" and equally becausee as I said this is about feminist response to this attack on women's rights.

Not some wishy washy liberal sense of "fair play"

If there was an respect for women's rights the trans ideology that you can change sex would never have taken hold. But because society doesn't value women, or their right to have rights, society enable men to undermine women's sex based rights. Complete opposite to the reaction of anyone push the trans-race arguement, because whether actually believing it, or playing lip service because society says its the right thing to do, society did not accept that a white person can claim to be Black.

Its is societies fundmental dismissal that women as a sex class has rights, that llowed the trans agenda to take hold.

It is no difference than society, admittely really slowly, no longer regards domestic violence as just "a bit of a domestic" that police and society can just shrug their shoulders about.

No only is the violence acknowledged as being real nad horrific, but it recognises that the power imbalance between the sexes is what under pins it.

As I said before. This isn't some wishy washy liberal human rights thats not very nice forum.

This a the Feminism and Women's Rights Forum.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 07/11/2024 02:36

TempestTost · 07/11/2024 02:20

I think that's somewhat accurate.

The Democrats have been losing voters every election since Obama. Harris seems to have been a bit more of a drop but it's in line with the general trend.

IIRC the Republicans did continue to gain Latino voters and black voters.

I posted the numbers of votes comparing 2020 to 2024 just above your post.

And it looks very similar to recent UK GE.

ie Labour didn't "win" their vote was down, but the Tory's like the Democrat's vote was down even more.

OP posts:
IwantToRetire · 07/11/2024 02:41

Kamala Harris 226 - Electoral College (43%)
47.6% popular vote
67,875,826 popular votes

Donald Trump 294 - Electoral College (57%)
50.9% popular vote
72,560,841 popular votes

270 to win - Electoral College
(there are 538 in total so another 18 to be announced?)

7/11/2024 @ 02:38 GMT

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/us/2024/results/

OP posts:
TempestTost · 07/11/2024 02:47

IwantToRetire · 07/11/2024 02:36

I posted the numbers of votes comparing 2020 to 2024 just above your post.

And it looks very similar to recent UK GE.

ie Labour didn't "win" their vote was down, but the Tory's like the Democrat's vote was down even more.

Yes, and I said that this was part of a larger picture, it's not just Kamala, they keep dropping, ever since Obama.

LilyBartsHatShop · 07/11/2024 05:12

TrumptonsFireEngine · 06/11/2024 23:13

The other thing about abortion is that overturning Roe v Wade has returned the decision to the states themselves. So the states with a ban are those where the majority of voters support a ban, and vice versa.

Yes, exactly. None of the swing states are states that are going to impose draconion abortion laws so it really was a tactical error to put it front and centre.

LilyBartsHatShop · 07/11/2024 05:25

@IwantToRetire
"Much as I am invested in fighting for women's sex based rights, I have no believe that this was a major factor for voters in this election that it was in the UK GE. We might want it to be, but it is not a priority for most of the population.
...
From exit interviews it was / is the economy.'
This is what I'd have said until data emerged about Harris not mobilising women to vote as anticipated.
Exit polls tell you nothing about why people stayed home, and chose not to cast a vote at all.
I don't imagine Riley Gains convinced may people to vote for Trump who weren't going to vote for him anyway. But it's possible, I think, that some women whose political sympathies otherwise lie with Harris and the Democrats were put off bothering to vote by Gaines' story of having to chose between sacrificing her postition on the swimming team and getting changed infront of Lia Thomas (just for one example).
I don't know when or how social scientists collect reliable data from people who decided not to vote, but I'll be interested to see what it reveals.

RatitesUnite · 07/11/2024 05:33

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2024 22:16

My lecturer, who over the years, I've come to respect and admire as I've grown older said to us as undergraduates:

"I suspect you are all here thinking about how cool you are and how you've all got it sussed about how the world should be. And you all are really leftie and think the Daily Mail should be banned. Well one day you might need the Daily Mail."

He then went on to lecture us about gatekeeping and who gatekeeps the gatekeepers. Who controls censorship and why we should really consider this and what it says about power and control. Freedom can't exist with excessive censorship. It's impossible because you had power to people in order to enforce against the population. It's at odds with the essence of the public holding power to account by removing their ability to do so.

At the time, I was indeed very much 'this is right and this is wrong' and I was on an internet community forum where we didn't all get out and a bunch of my friends (who were initially internet friends but became real life friends), to my horror and frustration, would often post things I didn't like and thought were offensive. A couple of them were eventually given moderation powers by the guy who ran the site (who I was also friends with) but I never was.

At the time it annoyed me and I felt hard done by that I wasn't listened to and was overlooked for having that power.

But in hindsight my lecturer was absolutely right and I'd have been a terrible terrible mod and the power would have gone to my head.

I now sit at a point waivering between thinking that censorship should be as light and as limited as possible and only where fundamentally necessary and no censorship. Neither of these options fully satisfy me for their own obvious drawbacks.

My lecture was in 1998 and at the time the internet really was the wild west without so much as a Google search filter.

I sit and reflect on the journey I've been on with the concept of gatekeeping and really understanding what it means. My 19 year old self didn't fully appreciate it, though the lecture definitely struck a chord and I've never ever forgotten it.

I grew up. And I'm 46 now and I get it.

The Democrats still haven't got it. For all the talk of democracy and the constitution etc etc, they have forgotten the underpinning principles of freedom of speech holding power to account and in taking and trying to use censorship and control on the population they've empowered Trump to harass this and use it in his own way against the interests of the people.

My point is the democrats are full of educated, middle class mid level management who want to control their subordinates. Trump saw this and understood the grievance that it's been causing. And weaponised it because the Democrats couldn't see their own self righteous hypocrisy. And weren't being held to account in the eyes of many.

I find it hard because do not share the same beliefs and culture as so many Trump supporters - who are genuinely nice and good people and totally not Nazis. They just have different views to me. And equally I am alarmed and disturbed by the whole narrative of the Democrats to demonise, smear, censor and refuse to even consider different perspectives because they've been so wrapped up in the idea that they are right and they are good.

I truly believe that the majority of people are good. Some fuck up, but inherently they mean well and perhaps have the wrong or different priorities. But they arent 'full of hate'.

And that's really where the Democrats have messed up. With arrogance and believing we should all live a certain way. The lack of tolerance and the authoritarian censorship and lies are not exclusive to the Republican party.

And it's ordinary people who understand this in a way that so many university educated people aren't grasping.

I'm not sure I'd see what I see now but for that 2 hour session 25 years ago.

There was an understanding and balance of power over censorship until social media and since then we've seen a battleground for power over who are the gatekeepers. Elon Musk buying twitter exemplifies the entire point. He bought it because he understood the value of it wasn't in its advertising revenue. Even if it makes a loss on paper it doesn't necessarily make HIM a loss. Not now.

Why is it that the first buildings the US bombs when it takes military action against another country or enemy is it's communication hq?

Today is hard. Really hard. I've seen it coming for a good while and it doesn't remotely surprise me.

Hitler promised bread and work. He didn't get elected because the priority was to kill the Jews and an agenda of hate. They became the scapegoat and something to build power and control from. They were mined for resources. He understood the priorities of those at the bottom who brought him power are always food, work and housing first. People struggling with them always leaves a democracy vulnerable to those who make the same sort of promise and identify their priority. Their priority isn't a concept of democracy, their priority is paying the bills and feeding their family. And it always will be.

You won't win an election if you pit the fuzzy and intellectual complex concept of democracy head to head with a under educated public who are acutely aware of declining standards of living and the likelihood, are struggling to pay bills and that they will not achieve as well as their parents generation. Why? Because mathematics.

Why didn't the Democrats see this?

Biden's victory of margin was incredibly slim. Incumbent parties very very rarely increase their vote share before losing office. They were swimming uphill against the current from the word go from 2020. This is the same position Labour are in now. They'd be monumentally stupid if they don't look at this election and understand the WHY present here.

Why would someone who didn't graduate high school vote for Trump who has the vocabulary of a 9 year old over Harris who is university educated and has a huge vocabulary? Really? Is it that hard to see and understand this?

@RedToothBrush you are one of the most insightful posters on MN. I always enjoy your posts.

borntobequiet · 07/11/2024 06:29

Elon Musk was a huge influence, with his platform. And he’s supported Democrats in the past - he donated to John Kerry, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. But genderism seems to have been a major factor in his support for Trump.

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