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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

US Election results

529 replies

IwantToRetire · 06/11/2024 01:26

Kamala Harris 27
45.2% popular vote
12,768,875 votes

Donald Trump 99
53.8% popular vote
15,275,564 votes

270 to win

U.S. election results 2024 | CBC News

6/11/2024 @ 01:25 GMT

U.S. election results 2024

Get live results from the U.S. presidential race between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. See if the Democrats or Republicans win control of the House and the Senate.

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elections/us/2024/results/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
EasternStandard · 06/11/2024 20:15

Did anyone see that Harris got a lower percentage of the female vote than Biden?

I was surprised by that

IwantToRetire · 06/11/2024 20:18

EasternStandard · 06/11/2024 20:15

Did anyone see that Harris got a lower percentage of the female vote than Biden?

I was surprised by that

Yes I did, and on reflection makes me think I was so mistaken to think US women would be angry enough about abortion to vote for her.

So all those women activists who organise around "women's issue" to get women's votes, are maybe make a mistake. Hmm

OP posts:
whydoihavetowork · 06/11/2024 20:18

I don't know how any woman could vote for Trump. It's a terrifying thought. I don't know enough about it but the democrats must be fucking horrendous and clearly ignorant of what really matters to people (eg the immigration and economy issues) if you choose this.

Shortshriftandlethal · 06/11/2024 20:21

IwantToRetire · 06/11/2024 19:01

When I started this thread I thought the process of finding out who had won would take much longer that it actually did! So following votes for 24 of 26 hours seemed likely. How wrong I was.

Much as I am invested in fighting for women's sex based rights, I have no believe that this was a major factor for voters in this election that it was in the UK GE. We might want it to be, but it is not a priority for most of the population.

Trump and other republicans may be "anti trans" but it doesn't make them pro women rights because they come from a re-actionary position ie they are "anti trans" because they are "anit woke".

From exit interviews it was / is the economy.

I had thought that on paper at least, the economy under Biden was improving, but if it was, most people weren't feeling it. And rightly or wronglly believe that Trumps policies will improve how wealthy they feel. Many people said that under Trump's last presidency they felt better off.

And that ironically, because he had been president before some no longer thought him "unsitable" etc.. More like a favourite uncle who always says "unacceptable" things, but otherwise is okay.

Even Latino (is that the acceptable term?) felt able to overlook terrible comments because they thought his business orientated approach was preferrable to the more "socialist" Democratic approach.

Some of the commentators said the result was a victory for the angry young white men who felt overlooked and denigrated by the Democrats. Although as seems to be usual more men are republican.

Its a bit like when the Red Wall turned Blue. No amount of London / Washington correct talk and policies, compensates those who feel left out and ignored.

I did think because there seemed so much activism, that more women would vote Democrat because of the terrible outcome from Roe vs Wade being over turned. But apparently not enough. 55% Democrat 45% Republican.

Quite detailed breakdown (but presumably subject to change) of who voted, by sex, age, race etc..

See image below (click to enlarge) and more details (readable) at
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/exit-polls

Edited

Being "anti trans" as you put it, may be "reactionary" - but it is also pro recognition of the facts of sex; of women's inherent dignity and the fairness of female only sports. Lots of families in the U.S are sick and tired of seeing and hearing of males taking away their daughter's sporting successes. they don't like the fact that males are prioritised when it comes to single sex 'bathrooms', either.

Women's rights don't always have to be viewed through a liberal progressive lens.

Shortshriftandlethal · 06/11/2024 20:23

How many times a year, or even in their whole life, will women seek an abortion? There are other important issues which effect women and girls far more.

Having abortion access as front and centre of everything may well have suggested to many, I feel, that this is just about privileged, coastal career women and not about the majority of women.

whydoihavetowork · 06/11/2024 20:25

Shortshriftandlethal · 06/11/2024 20:23

How many times a year, or even in their whole life, will women seek an abortion? There are other important issues which effect women and girls far more.

Having abortion access as front and centre of everything may well have suggested to many, I feel, that this is just about privileged, coastal career women and not about the majority of women.

Edited

Yes but it's not just about abortion is it. It's about miscarriage and reproductive health and women being helped by doctors when their lives are in danger.

Shortshriftandlethal · 06/11/2024 20:27

whydoihavetowork · 06/11/2024 20:25

Yes but it's not just about abortion is it. It's about miscarriage and reproductive health and women being helped by doctors when their lives are in danger.

Yet it probably sounded to many that is was just about access to abortion....as if pregnancy and motherhood was the worst thing that could ever happen to a woman.

NotTerfNorCis · 06/11/2024 20:33

it has also led to them questioning many other formerly held convictions and positions too.

What I found was that I no longer took it for granted that shutting down speakers I didn't agree with was reasonable. When Men's Rights Activists lost their venues, my thought had been, they deserved it - maybe they'll look more closely at their ideas and realise they're wrong! But it doesn't work that way. Being silenced and told you're a bad human being probably won't change your mind at all.

IwantToRetire · 06/11/2024 20:49

Shortshriftandlethal · 06/11/2024 20:21

Being "anti trans" as you put it, may be "reactionary" - but it is also pro recognition of the facts of sex; of women's inherent dignity and the fairness of female only sports. Lots of families in the U.S are sick and tired of seeing and hearing of males taking away their daughter's sporting successes. they don't like the fact that males are prioritised when it comes to single sex 'bathrooms', either.

Women's rights don't always have to be viewed through a liberal progressive lens.

Edited

You dont seem to have understood what I said.

People can agree an outcome but coming from very different positions.

Feminist who base their view point on women's sex based rights and therefore oppose the concept that you can change sex, having nothing what so ever in common with someone who is basing their response on preserving masculine vs. feminine roles, behaviour.

Surely this doesn't need to be spelt out on a feminist forum like FWR?

ie women's sex based rights include the right to abortion so to claim a right winger who oppose TW in women's sport is doing it for the same reason as feminists, is just not plausible.

And if, which seems possible, Republican anti trans policies are then bundled in with anti gay and lesbian policies, I would really hope no one on FWR would think that was okay.

OP posts:
lemonstolemonade · 06/11/2024 21:24

@IwantToRetire

Yes, I do see your point.

But honestly, if Kamala Harris were not a black woman she wouldn't have been on the ticket as a VP anyway. I think she got the job as a form of tokenism. That's why her claim to the top job was so weak - her claim to the VP job was weak in the first place. She is a great campaigner but a relatively poor politician. She would never have got that job on merit.

Thinking about it another way, Kamala was in an administration, supposedly doing a big job already and really had very little to say on policy at all. Yes, she didn't know she would be the candidate until later on. But had she not even considered what she would do if she was in charge in the Biden days, having witnessed his decline? Presumably she wanted to be VP so she could run as president one day. She was a VP for a man in his eighties and had no real developed personal sense of what she wanted to offer as the positive case to win a majority of the electorate. What does she think politics is for?

If you look at the Republicans, they have had a very powerful black woman in post, in the form of condoleeza Rice. You might not like her political decisions, but she had a very prominent role in the Bush administration. I don't think it is just racism and misogyny to blame.

2Rebecca · 06/11/2024 21:27

Harris didn't bother attending her gathering to commiserate with and thank her supporters. That is not a leader

chilling19 · 06/11/2024 21:36

Being ignored because of my views on the harms trans ideology is forcing on women and children has made me feel politically powerless.

And, this experience has given me insight to those who voted for Brexit, and those who are despairing over immigration, neither of which I have an affinity for.

However, it has taught me that swathes of the electorate are not being listened to and there is no attempt from Starmer's government to engage with anyone who doesn't toe the party line, something that Democrats have found to their cost.

As a woman whom supposedly lives in a democracy, I would like a political system that encourages dialogue - for example Brexit: what are the issues, how can we discuss them, let's do an impact statement; this then should be extrapolated to immigration, women's rights, in fact all political issues.

As it is, we have a political system that strongly resembles a dictatorship and shuts down legitimate concerns and debate.

Finally, the first thing this government does is hit the winter fuel payment? WTF. A Labour voter all my life, I did not vote for them this time - I hardly recognise them, something I think a lot of swing voters in the US have expressed today.

Starmer - you are a disgrace to the Labour Party that gave us the NHS and cradle to grave promises.

Grammarnut · 06/11/2024 22:08

HereForTheFreeLunch · 06/11/2024 18:49

The counting is by the machine as far as I understand so I think it will be simpler.
UK has under 50 million voters and the US has around 200 million I think. Lot more volume.

Even so, UK counts are by area, and constituency. So the ballots from each ward are counted to make sure they tally with the voter record, and then then divided by vote and counted separately for the constituency. I don't see that 200M rather than 50M would make a difference to such counting. And machines can go wrong, miscount etc, and can be tampered with. Vigilance - watching the count by candidates and their agents as well as by the count officials - avoids mistakes. Close calls are always recounted then and there, from scratch.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2024 22:16

NotTerfNorCis · 06/11/2024 20:33

it has also led to them questioning many other formerly held convictions and positions too.

What I found was that I no longer took it for granted that shutting down speakers I didn't agree with was reasonable. When Men's Rights Activists lost their venues, my thought had been, they deserved it - maybe they'll look more closely at their ideas and realise they're wrong! But it doesn't work that way. Being silenced and told you're a bad human being probably won't change your mind at all.

My lecturer, who over the years, I've come to respect and admire as I've grown older said to us as undergraduates:

"I suspect you are all here thinking about how cool you are and how you've all got it sussed about how the world should be. And you all are really leftie and think the Daily Mail should be banned. Well one day you might need the Daily Mail."

He then went on to lecture us about gatekeeping and who gatekeeps the gatekeepers. Who controls censorship and why we should really consider this and what it says about power and control. Freedom can't exist with excessive censorship. It's impossible because you had power to people in order to enforce against the population. It's at odds with the essence of the public holding power to account by removing their ability to do so.

At the time, I was indeed very much 'this is right and this is wrong' and I was on an internet community forum where we didn't all get out and a bunch of my friends (who were initially internet friends but became real life friends), to my horror and frustration, would often post things I didn't like and thought were offensive. A couple of them were eventually given moderation powers by the guy who ran the site (who I was also friends with) but I never was.

At the time it annoyed me and I felt hard done by that I wasn't listened to and was overlooked for having that power.

But in hindsight my lecturer was absolutely right and I'd have been a terrible terrible mod and the power would have gone to my head.

I now sit at a point waivering between thinking that censorship should be as light and as limited as possible and only where fundamentally necessary and no censorship. Neither of these options fully satisfy me for their own obvious drawbacks.

My lecture was in 1998 and at the time the internet really was the wild west without so much as a Google search filter.

I sit and reflect on the journey I've been on with the concept of gatekeeping and really understanding what it means. My 19 year old self didn't fully appreciate it, though the lecture definitely struck a chord and I've never ever forgotten it.

I grew up. And I'm 46 now and I get it.

The Democrats still haven't got it. For all the talk of democracy and the constitution etc etc, they have forgotten the underpinning principles of freedom of speech holding power to account and in taking and trying to use censorship and control on the population they've empowered Trump to harass this and use it in his own way against the interests of the people.

My point is the democrats are full of educated, middle class mid level management who want to control their subordinates. Trump saw this and understood the grievance that it's been causing. And weaponised it because the Democrats couldn't see their own self righteous hypocrisy. And weren't being held to account in the eyes of many.

I find it hard because do not share the same beliefs and culture as so many Trump supporters - who are genuinely nice and good people and totally not Nazis. They just have different views to me. And equally I am alarmed and disturbed by the whole narrative of the Democrats to demonise, smear, censor and refuse to even consider different perspectives because they've been so wrapped up in the idea that they are right and they are good.

I truly believe that the majority of people are good. Some fuck up, but inherently they mean well and perhaps have the wrong or different priorities. But they arent 'full of hate'.

And that's really where the Democrats have messed up. With arrogance and believing we should all live a certain way. The lack of tolerance and the authoritarian censorship and lies are not exclusive to the Republican party.

And it's ordinary people who understand this in a way that so many university educated people aren't grasping.

I'm not sure I'd see what I see now but for that 2 hour session 25 years ago.

There was an understanding and balance of power over censorship until social media and since then we've seen a battleground for power over who are the gatekeepers. Elon Musk buying twitter exemplifies the entire point. He bought it because he understood the value of it wasn't in its advertising revenue. Even if it makes a loss on paper it doesn't necessarily make HIM a loss. Not now.

Why is it that the first buildings the US bombs when it takes military action against another country or enemy is it's communication hq?

Today is hard. Really hard. I've seen it coming for a good while and it doesn't remotely surprise me.

Hitler promised bread and work. He didn't get elected because the priority was to kill the Jews and an agenda of hate. They became the scapegoat and something to build power and control from. They were mined for resources. He understood the priorities of those at the bottom who brought him power are always food, work and housing first. People struggling with them always leaves a democracy vulnerable to those who make the same sort of promise and identify their priority. Their priority isn't a concept of democracy, their priority is paying the bills and feeding their family. And it always will be.

You won't win an election if you pit the fuzzy and intellectual complex concept of democracy head to head with a under educated public who are acutely aware of declining standards of living and the likelihood, are struggling to pay bills and that they will not achieve as well as their parents generation. Why? Because mathematics.

Why didn't the Democrats see this?

Biden's victory of margin was incredibly slim. Incumbent parties very very rarely increase their vote share before losing office. They were swimming uphill against the current from the word go from 2020. This is the same position Labour are in now. They'd be monumentally stupid if they don't look at this election and understand the WHY present here.

Why would someone who didn't graduate high school vote for Trump who has the vocabulary of a 9 year old over Harris who is university educated and has a huge vocabulary? Really? Is it that hard to see and understand this?

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2024 22:26

lemonstolemonade · 06/11/2024 21:24

@IwantToRetire

Yes, I do see your point.

But honestly, if Kamala Harris were not a black woman she wouldn't have been on the ticket as a VP anyway. I think she got the job as a form of tokenism. That's why her claim to the top job was so weak - her claim to the VP job was weak in the first place. She is a great campaigner but a relatively poor politician. She would never have got that job on merit.

Thinking about it another way, Kamala was in an administration, supposedly doing a big job already and really had very little to say on policy at all. Yes, she didn't know she would be the candidate until later on. But had she not even considered what she would do if she was in charge in the Biden days, having witnessed his decline? Presumably she wanted to be VP so she could run as president one day. She was a VP for a man in his eighties and had no real developed personal sense of what she wanted to offer as the positive case to win a majority of the electorate. What does she think politics is for?

If you look at the Republicans, they have had a very powerful black woman in post, in the form of condoleeza Rice. You might not like her political decisions, but she had a very prominent role in the Bush administration. I don't think it is just racism and misogyny to blame.

Labour has something of a problem with identity and the public perception.

They made a big song and dance about Rachel Reeves being the first female chancellor for the budget.

The comment a friend made was:
"Big fucking deal they still have a problem with women and they still haven't had a leader that hasn't been male and white. She's been appointed by a man. Meanwhile the supposedly sexist and racist conservatives have elected an Asian none Christian leader, three female leaders and they are about to elect their first black female leader. Whose the progressive party here?".

As much as anyone might want to disagree with this on principle, he's still got a point that really really difficult to argue with.

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2024 22:27

I should stress how much I hate Trump and what he will do. And I certainly am not a Conservative Party fan.

It's just ... There's a problem here that looks like an elephant no one wants to acknowledge never mind address.

TrumptonsFireEngine · 06/11/2024 22:29

I mean did the Republicans chose Trump or did he just impose himself on them?!

Trump had to win the primaries in order to become their candidate. He didn’t just walk into the role. Harris, on the other hand, did once Biden stepped down and many Democrats were not happy with not being given to opportunity to choose.

TrumptonsFireEngine · 06/11/2024 22:36

I am a bit bemused by the suggestion that all those identifarians camping out on college campuses thought the Democrats weren’t doing enough to help Gaza and decided to voted Trump instead despite the fact that he is republican and a non-interventionist when it comes to overseas conflicts.

Lalgarh · 06/11/2024 22:38

RedToothBrush · 06/11/2024 22:27

I should stress how much I hate Trump and what he will do. And I certainly am not a Conservative Party fan.

It's just ... There's a problem here that looks like an elephant no one wants to acknowledge never mind address.

All the post mortems on the democrat defeat are about how it never occurred to Democrats that 3rd 4th or 5th generation Latino Americans would be as opposed to illegal immigration as white voters were polling as.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt?post=asset%3A86395737-5c91-49e6-b7b6-0ec6ab3b89a0#post

US election 2024 live: Harris tells supporters 'do not despair' as she vows to help Trump with transfer of power

Vice-President Kamala Harris says many people feel "like we are entering a dark time", but she hopes that's not the case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/czxrnw5qrprt?post=asset%3A86395737-5c91-49e6-b7b6-0ec6ab3b89a0#post

duc748 · 06/11/2024 22:43

TrumptonsFireEngine · 06/11/2024 22:36

I am a bit bemused by the suggestion that all those identifarians camping out on college campuses thought the Democrats weren’t doing enough to help Gaza and decided to voted Trump instead despite the fact that he is republican and a non-interventionist when it comes to overseas conflicts.

Me too. Surely the difference between the US and GB is than many disaffected Labour supporters here were prepared to hold their noses and vote Tory, for a variety of reasons, whereas in the US I can't imagine that many of the blue-hairs voted for Trump.

Appalonia · 06/11/2024 22:48

This was posted on another thread, but think it's worth repeating here:

For a cohort who call the opposition uneducated and stupid, the Liberal left are very slow at understanding the realities of elections. The same is happening in Europe but they think the argument will be won by labelling everyone far right, closing all debate, cancelling people who are not with them, and driving ideological change without societal consensus. It's literally never worked in history and it won't again.

Lalgarh · 06/11/2024 22:51

duc748 · 06/11/2024 22:43

Me too. Surely the difference between the US and GB is than many disaffected Labour supporters here were prepared to hold their noses and vote Tory, for a variety of reasons, whereas in the US I can't imagine that many of the blue-hairs voted for Trump.

The Bernie/ Gaza faction were gloating about the democrats defeat in Michigan

duc748 · 06/11/2024 22:56

I just turned Newsnight on, and Piers Morgan (I know!) was asking some, presumably Dem party woman, via a video link, how come a black female presidential candidate who claims to seek the advancement of women has spent so much time and energy propagandising for genderism, and how much do you think that dented the Democrat cause (paraphrasing). But before we heard her response, the presenter (Victoria Derbyshire? I'm not sure) said, "We have move away from that now..."

Appalonia · 06/11/2024 23:04

duc748 · 06/11/2024 22:56

I just turned Newsnight on, and Piers Morgan (I know!) was asking some, presumably Dem party woman, via a video link, how come a black female presidential candidate who claims to seek the advancement of women has spent so much time and energy propagandising for genderism, and how much do you think that dented the Democrat cause (paraphrasing). But before we heard her response, the presenter (Victoria Derbyshire? I'm not sure) said, "We have move away from that now..."

THAT is exactly the problem!

ThreeWordHarpy · 06/11/2024 23:07

In terms of absolute numbers of votes, am I right in thinking Trump had about the same number he did in 2020, but Harris got significantly less than Biden did?

which I interpret to mean that Trumps base isn’t growing (which is a silver lining?), but swing voters who were swayed by Biden in 2020 didn’t like Harris and didn’t feel strongly enough anti-Trump to overcome that dislike. So they stayed at home rather than vote at all.

So it’s not quite as bad as I initially thought.