Looking for help keeping a women's group to women only....

[CurtainsToYou]

NC'd but been on these threads for a while and thought I knew the challenges, but now I'm involved in a group going through this and realising that actually I'm lacking in law/facts/examples to reference to!

I'm sure there has been a similar thread on here in the last 12 months but I cannot find it, despite searching. Can anyone remember the thread with similar info or offer any help?

I am a member of a women only group. It is a small registered charity. We are now going through the policies about whether we can remain women only or not. This obviously means we have to decide what we are accepting as a 'woman' (although I can't believe I'm writing that!).
There is a lot of reference to the WI's 'living as a woman' which I don't agree with in general, but especially here as the activities of our charity mean we are often away in small groups or pairs and staying overnight in various accommodation types/set ups and sharing bathrooms etc.

I'm trying to push for decision to be made via 'biological sex' and therefore using passport/birth certificate (although from reading I understand passports can be changed via Dr's note or transition).

I have read the Charities Commission info on this and am confused as both sex and gender seem to be protected. We are a minority in what we do - i.e. a group of women doing things in a very male environment, so I'm wondering if that would help us protect it as I note that might give sway to why we should be protected.

Can anyone help me in pointing me to any sources or info that support a sex based decision, not gender/self identifying. I am wondering if I can use the example of sports (e.g. recently fencing) that are slowly standing up to be sex based, but realise it's a bit of a leap (no pun intended) from that to what we do!

Thank you - I'm feeling a bit panicked and annoyed by it all, so apologies for rushed sentences!

In your shoes I would take a proactive stance and have a plan in place. Imagine a scenario where someone challenges your single sex, women only policy, and decide how you will react before it happens. Have some statements ready, and don't leave front facing staff unprepared.

IMO the WI model is not the one to follow . It’s awful

@CurtainsToYou Brighton Sisters Salon has written a resource pack for exactly this purpose. They have successfully ran single sex, women only groups for 3 years.

You can download it for free here brightonsisters.wordpress.com/our-resource-pack-for-activists/

Don't use passport/birth certificate as a criterion - they can be legally falsified.

Sex is a protected characteristic with a specific term in the equalities legislation that it is perfectly legitimate for an opportunity, resources, activity or facility to be single-sex where that is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. So your first step is to clarify what your aims are and whether those can realistically be achieved if you become mixed sex. If you can't achieve your aims in a mixed sex environment then it is legitimate to remain single sex.

Gender is not a protected characteristic. Gender reassignment is. That means that a man who has undergone or is in the process of undergoing gender reassignment towards being perceived as a woman should not be treated any less favourably than any other man so if you are excluding other men it is ok to also exclude transwomen. however you must then make it clear that transmen (women who have undergone or are in the process of undergoing gender reassignment towards being perceived as men) can be included and welcomed. Excluding both transmen and transwomen would be transphobic.

There's no way to define a transwoman as a woman without accepting and embracing sexist stereotypes. There are very many women who reject such stereotypes who cannot possibly be in the same category as a transwoman and so being inclusive of transwomen is intrinsically excluding a very large number of other women. It's also legitimate to have a womens group for "people who embrace and want to emulate feminine stereotypes" and it's fine to include transwomen in those groups. You just can't be a group that is welcoming to all women and also transwomen.

The Brighton Sisters constitution doesn't define what a woman is.

So although public statement about women being biological females, presumably someone could say, in that TW can on occassions be said to be "legal women" they could be challenged for holding meeting that breach their constitution.

I wonder if any group has a constitution that states it is by / for biological females.

Yes it does, page 11. It is very explicitly for anyone registered female at birth.

Also it says this, not sure if this applies to your group:

The Sisters Salon Organising Committee has fewer than 25 members and is therefore not covered by the Equality Act. This means there is no law preventing us from keeping our Salons female only.

I think that is their descripton on web site.

This is different to their legal constitution.

https://brightonsisters.wordpress.com/about/constitution/

The Salon is a sub group of Brighton Sisters so is covered by that constitution.

We have a local Men’s shed group. They are adamant that they can legally have mainly men-only sessions. Under pressure they agreed to open the workshop for occasional mixed sessions so women could have access to the workshop.

We eventually realised that they are men’s mental health groups not primarily about workshop stuff.

I don’t know what the legal basis is, but sauce for the gander…

This pisses me off. Of course men need and should have access to single sex groups. The men's shed movement was a brilliant initiative that helped address loneliness and mental health issues in men, especially older men. And then some women insisted on being included, which meant some of the men lost that resource.

We all need single sex stuff sometimes.

Perhaps I didn’t explain myself well HGMAS.

I am part of a small management committee that had space for a community workshop. We let a local Men’s Shed use it. We thought it was a movement to help people learn tool and workshop skills. We thought women should be included in that. As a lifelong feminist I believe women should be encouraged to learn to use tools just as men should learn to cook.

The Men’s Shed rep never told us it was essentially about mental health not tools until recently.

When they explained that we understood their position. The compromise we have reached is that they open up for mixed sex tool sessions at a small number of designated times.

The point I was trying to make is that the Men’s Shed movements believe that they have a legal basis on which to hold single sex gatherings. It would be useful to know what it is and how sex is defined for their organisation.

Yes, that may be worth asking. Perhaps men's sheds and feminists can join forces to look into single sex service provision.

https://scottishmsa.org.uk/faq/#1579622679148-2d68545f-8eab

'At SMSA we believe that something special can happen when men work together in a mutually supportive way. This special experience exists in women-only groups too (www.theswi.org.uk ). Many people agree that a group’s dynamic changes when a member of the opposite gender joins the group. There is nothing wrong about that, but it does mean it has become something else from what it was intended for and wanted to be. Some Men’s Sheds have women members, some don’t. Some have fully mixed sessions and some have men’s days and women’s days. Some women have started women only Sheds often referred to as Shed Sheds as they see the value in single gender experiences.'

Then again, read the SWI inclusion policy and weep.

Pages of waffle about transwomen and non binary people. A terse couple of sentences about the protected characteristic of sex.

They're working very hard to.convince themselves it's not bullshit.

And laying themselves open to a discrimination claim from a man who does not have a special ladyfeel identity, imo.

https://www.theswi.org.uk/about-us/