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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

OKLAHOMA!

102 replies

Treaclewell · 12/10/2024 10:44

When I was a child I enjoyed musicals with not much thought, but they had a lot of darkness to them. While holed up with a broken arm I've been revisiting, and just watched Oklahoma from the Proms. Very good, but what about the young men? Not just Jud Fry, to whom I shall return, but the rest. Avid customers for Ali Hakim's postcard merchandise, clients of burlesque and other things a gentleman never mentions, and that is almost presented as innocent. What do you expect when they ride for days on end with just a pony for a friend? It's the way things are. Jud, on the other hand is a very familiar figure. Now, he wouldn't be lurking in the smokehouse with his collection of pictures, but in room with wifi, and his longing for something real and his murderous response to rejection. He has already killed where he was turned down. Was he based on a real case of the time, an early incel? And why on earth did Laurey, whose gut was telling her he was a wrong'un, lead him on? I don't think I can watch it again.

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 08:49

@AmeliaEarache I defer to your 5 times over my 2... and it's great to "meet" a fellow fan 😁

Minor quibble: we've gone from "Hamilton doesn't have a daughter" to "he had seven children, two of them girls"...

Anyway, it prompted me to look for information about the real Eliza and (as is often the case in the arts), it turns out that things didn't quite happen in the same order as IRL. She did leave him after the affair and went to...

"join her parents in Albany, where their son William Stephen was born on August 4, 1797. She returned to her marital house in New York City in early September 1797, in part because the local medical doctor had been unable to cure their eldest son Philip, who had accompanied her to Albany and contracted typhus. Elizabeth and Alexander reconciled and remained married, and had two more children together."

It turns out they had eight children in total (I had assumed only 2 from Philip singing about only having a sister): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Schuyler_Hamilton So it wasn't the grief that brought them back together, it seems like maybe it was acceptance/practicality on her part.

Perhaps "gaslighting" is the wrong word but the emotional journey we're taken on (maybe emotional manipulation is a better phrase?) is that it's a Happy Ending because they are back together. There are so many examples of stories in theatre and film where women are conditioned to just accept loveable rogue behaviour in men. Also to accept a position as being of interest purely through the lens of sexiness - I watched the original Top Gun again a couple of years ago and saw it in a whole new light: on the first 2 occasions Maverick meets Charlie he 1) sings to her, making it obvious he's interested 2) tells her she's wasting time with the man she's with at the restaurant, follows her in to the ladies' and suggests they have sex on the sinks. I thought that was romantic, loveable rogue-ishness when I was a teenager (probably because it was pretty normal to portray men and women in this way and create "love stories" with this foundation)🤦‍♀️

However, I fully agree that in the face of 7 Brides et al, Hamilton barely registers for deeply messed up sexual politics.

Elizabeth Schuyler Hamilton - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Schuyler_Hamilton

AmeliaEarache · 16/10/2024 09:53

@BonfireLady - what I meant was at the point they are singing Dear Theodosia he doesn’t have a daughter; he has a son, Burr has a daughter. (Also, I clearly can’t count! 8 children, plus the wee adopted one who lived with them as a child)

I can see on rereading your original comment I misunderstood what you were getting at, bringing up his daughter; I thought you were conflating Burr’s child with his

I was trying to stick to the “Hamilton the musical” story, not actual Alexander Hamilton’s life - because this thread is about sexual politics in musicals - and in the story of the musical, it’s the combined grief.

Martha Washington’s tom cat wasn’t named after him, he never did “punch the burser” (LMM just liked the rhyme with “Burr, sir”), Angelica was married for 3 years when the Schuyler sisters met Hamilton and there was not a romance (beyond a misplaced comma in a letter) but there was a strong and flirtatious friendship of letters. (He had a similarly close relationship with Peggy).

“My father has no sons” that Angelica sings conveniently forgets her 3 brothers (poor Mrs Schuyler - 15 children, 7 of whom died in infancy!)

So there’s a lot of rejigging timelines and making stuff up, but that’s theatre.

I’d like to apologise to @Treaclewell and everyone for the massive Hamilton derailment.

In my defence, I’ve been ill all week and this is the most fun conversation I’ve had in days.

Bonfire, LMM’s book on the creation of the Hamilton stage production is fascinating (Hamilton: The Revolution) as is Giles Terera’s Hamilton And Me diary. (I think Terera is even better than Leslie Odom Jr, and although Daveed Diggs is the best Lafayette, Jason Pennycooke is the best Jefferson.)

oh, and Top Gun sucks and always did.

Livelaughlurgy · 16/10/2024 10:02

I only saw Oklahoma once, I was about 10 and it was a school production. My biggest take away was that Ado Annie was a boss and the aspirational character. Poor Laurie was a bit of a drip.

dunBle · 16/10/2024 10:38

HomewardBoundSF · 15/10/2024 18:19

I can still enjoy these old things but I do see them through different eyes now I'm older. The over the top stereotype of the black housekeeper in Tom and Jerry for example, later replaced with a stereotyped Irish housekeeper if I remember.

One I can't stand is the song More Than Words. It just sounds like a man pestering his gf for sex. It's whole premise is 'You would if you loved me ...prove you love me..'. It's yukky.

It's weird the stuff that goes over your head when you're a kid. I always assumed that it was the black woman's house in the Tom and Jerry cartoons.

And I agree with you about "More Than Words" - it's a very prettily sung "why won't you shag me?" song but it's still a "why won't you shag me?" song.

BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 11:33

AmeliaEarache · 16/10/2024 09:53

@BonfireLady - what I meant was at the point they are singing Dear Theodosia he doesn’t have a daughter; he has a son, Burr has a daughter. (Also, I clearly can’t count! 8 children, plus the wee adopted one who lived with them as a child)

I can see on rereading your original comment I misunderstood what you were getting at, bringing up his daughter; I thought you were conflating Burr’s child with his

I was trying to stick to the “Hamilton the musical” story, not actual Alexander Hamilton’s life - because this thread is about sexual politics in musicals - and in the story of the musical, it’s the combined grief.

Martha Washington’s tom cat wasn’t named after him, he never did “punch the burser” (LMM just liked the rhyme with “Burr, sir”), Angelica was married for 3 years when the Schuyler sisters met Hamilton and there was not a romance (beyond a misplaced comma in a letter) but there was a strong and flirtatious friendship of letters. (He had a similarly close relationship with Peggy).

“My father has no sons” that Angelica sings conveniently forgets her 3 brothers (poor Mrs Schuyler - 15 children, 7 of whom died in infancy!)

So there’s a lot of rejigging timelines and making stuff up, but that’s theatre.

I’d like to apologise to @Treaclewell and everyone for the massive Hamilton derailment.

In my defence, I’ve been ill all week and this is the most fun conversation I’ve had in days.

Bonfire, LMM’s book on the creation of the Hamilton stage production is fascinating (Hamilton: The Revolution) as is Giles Terera’s Hamilton And Me diary. (I think Terera is even better than Leslie Odom Jr, and although Daveed Diggs is the best Lafayette, Jason Pennycooke is the best Jefferson.)

oh, and Top Gun sucks and always did.

❤️❤️

Apologies from me too @Treaclewell for both causing and enjoying the Hamilton derailment. I'll stop now (even though I really liked the extra info above about IRL versus the show)

oh, and Top Gun sucks and always did.

Noooooooo! I love both films, despite not wanting to be taught that I can feel empowered as a woman by acting like the mouse in a game of cat and mouse sexual-tension chase. Oh, and I'm a pacifist... who likes big noisy military jets.

And I agree with you about "More Than Words" - it's a very prettily sung "why won't you shag me?" song but it's still a "why won't you shag me?" song.

OMG, so it is. I love this song 🤦‍♀️

dollybird · 16/10/2024 12:12

I love the song Jolene, but hate the lyrics. You can do better than that, Dolly!

Treaclewell · 16/10/2024 12:20

Don't mind the derail.

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 13:25

Treaclewell · 16/10/2024 12:20

Don't mind the derail.

Phew.

In which case, I'll add one minor extra...

In my defence, I’ve been ill all week and this is the most fun conversation I’ve had in days.

I hope you feel better soon @AmeliaEarache My suggestion would be to embrace the fun as part of an illness recovery approach, by putting the Hamilton soundtrack on at whatever volume is tolerable (with how unwell you're feeling) and sing/dance along in whatever way also meets this criteria.

AmeliaEarache · 16/10/2024 14:19

@BonfireLady - Tom Cruise is outstanding and charismatic in Jerry Maguire but other than that I can't be doing with him. I can't even enjoy Mission: Impossible films because he's in them, despite Ving Rhames and Simon Pegg being charming.
But I particularly can't be arsed with repressed homoeroticism macho bullshit of Top Gun. I do love Anthony Edwards, though.

@Livelaughlurgy - Ado Annie and Aunt Eller were both life goal characters! (Even if the marvellous Gloria Grahame can't sing to save her life)
Have you seen Film Stars Don't Die In Liverpool, about Gloria Grahame's final months? Anette Benning is brilliant as Grahame
The stage version with Hugh Jackman in his pre-Wolverine days is a good Oklahoma! to watch if you fancy seeing more than just high school memories,

To cheer me up, Bonfire, I've been watching favourite clips from films. We've had the gun spinning scene from Tombstone with Val Kilmer as Doc Holliday - nicely looping back to the Top Gun references - and a couple of songs from Encanto (Surface Pressure)and Moana (You're Welcome) which are by Lin Manuel Miranda.

MistyGreenAndBlue · 16/10/2024 16:43

HomewardBoundSF · 15/10/2024 18:19

I can still enjoy these old things but I do see them through different eyes now I'm older. The over the top stereotype of the black housekeeper in Tom and Jerry for example, later replaced with a stereotyped Irish housekeeper if I remember.

One I can't stand is the song More Than Words. It just sounds like a man pestering his gf for sex. It's whole premise is 'You would if you loved me ...prove you love me..'. It's yukky.

The band (I think it was Nuno Bettencourt) have confirmed that the song is about him getting a blow job.

So you're right.

HomewardBoundSF · 16/10/2024 16:58

Yuk. It just sounds quite coercive to me now.

From the out I couldn't stand Tonight's the Night by Rod Stewart. The older he gets the creepier it seems to be singing about 'my virgin child' and 'spread your wings let me come inside'. I quite like his other songs but jeez that one gives me the ick.

BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 17:17

Arrghhhhh Tonight's the Night and More Than Words.... Two great songs... I'm going to keep enjoying them but I can't now unknow what I've just read 😬😬😬

It just sounds quite coercive to me now.

Indeed.

Glad you've found a way to battle through @AmeliaEarache

and a couple of songs from Encanto (Surface Pressure)and Moana (You're Welcome) which are by Lin Manuel Miranda.

I had no idea he wrote these. Very cool. "You're welcome" is a favourite in our house... as is the entire soundtrack of Frozen 2 (but that's a derail on the derail, so I'll stop! 🤦‍♀️)

HomewardBoundSF · 16/10/2024 17:27

I think you can argue 'different times' for some creative works. Look at all those old films where 40 plus men get off with women in their 20's ... Fred Astaire, Randolph Scott ... they jar now but at the time most actresses careers as romantic leads were over by age 30 so it perhaps didn't seem so mismatched to pair up old geezers with rising starlets.

(Woody Allen's similar films are a different level of ick now obviously).

RubyDarke · 16/10/2024 17:50

I love Hamilton but Katherine Ryan’s standup routine about him and Maria Reynolds cuts through quite a bit of questionable sexual politics - unsurprising for the historical context.

AmeliaEarache · 16/10/2024 18:03

BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 17:17

Arrghhhhh Tonight's the Night and More Than Words.... Two great songs... I'm going to keep enjoying them but I can't now unknow what I've just read 😬😬😬

It just sounds quite coercive to me now.

Indeed.

Glad you've found a way to battle through @AmeliaEarache

and a couple of songs from Encanto (Surface Pressure)and Moana (You're Welcome) which are by Lin Manuel Miranda.

I had no idea he wrote these. Very cool. "You're welcome" is a favourite in our house... as is the entire soundtrack of Frozen 2 (but that's a derail on the derail, so I'll stop! 🤦‍♀️)

Lin did all the songs for Moana and Encanto - you can even hear him sing on the wayfarer one when Moana finds the outrigger canoes hidden in the cave.

NB - that autocorrected to cake. I’m now imagining a cake big enough to hold outrigggers, and I am definitely up for that.

Your Welcome is known by as the Mum Summoner in our family. If I’m faffing in the kitchen when everyone is waiting to watch a film, they put You’re Welcome on and I come dashing in saying “Hey, I love this song!” I fall for it every single time.

AmeliaEarache · 16/10/2024 18:03

RubyDarke · 16/10/2024 17:50

I love Hamilton but Katherine Ryan’s standup routine about him and Maria Reynolds cuts through quite a bit of questionable sexual politics - unsurprising for the historical context.

“Put your dick away!”

She’s very funny about it.

BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 18:10

RubyDarke · 16/10/2024 17:50

I love Hamilton but Katherine Ryan’s standup routine about him and Maria Reynolds cuts through quite a bit of questionable sexual politics - unsurprising for the historical context.

Interesting. I need to watch this!

I like Katherine Ryan. She's a clever, funny lady. (So does my husband, just in a different way. Ha!).

BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 18:12

AmeliaEarache · 16/10/2024 18:03

Lin did all the songs for Moana and Encanto - you can even hear him sing on the wayfarer one when Moana finds the outrigger canoes hidden in the cave.

NB - that autocorrected to cake. I’m now imagining a cake big enough to hold outrigggers, and I am definitely up for that.

Your Welcome is known by as the Mum Summoner in our family. If I’m faffing in the kitchen when everyone is waiting to watch a film, they put You’re Welcome on and I come dashing in saying “Hey, I love this song!” I fall for it every single time.

Your Welcome is known by as the Mum Summoner in our family. If I’m faffing in the kitchen when everyone is waiting to watch a film, they put You’re Welcome on and I come dashing in saying “Hey, I love this song!” I fall for it every single time.

😂❤️

(I need to pay more attention to whose writing the songs. Both those soundtracks are great)

Snapespeare · 16/10/2024 18:16

In further semi-defense of Oklahoma! Ado Annie expresses her sexuality, enjoys sex and is not ashamed of that - Laurie sings 'many a new day' - not waiting around for the man she loves, who is not 'the only man amongst men' - she has agency.

The recent production had a scene in the dark where one imagines the interaction between Laurie and Jud, there is the sound of a belt being removed, my preferred interpretation is that Laurie removes it - Jud is creepy, but the hero - Curly - is creepier ' everything's going my way' - male entitlement.

BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 18:18

BonfireLady · 16/10/2024 18:12

Your Welcome is known by as the Mum Summoner in our family. If I’m faffing in the kitchen when everyone is waiting to watch a film, they put You’re Welcome on and I come dashing in saying “Hey, I love this song!” I fall for it every single time.

😂❤️

(I need to pay more attention to whose writing the songs. Both those soundtracks are great)

... and to my grammar....

*who's

DriveInSaturday · 16/10/2024 23:39

dollybird · 16/10/2024 12:12

I love the song Jolene, but hate the lyrics. You can do better than that, Dolly!

Have you heard Beyoncé's 'don't mess with me' version? Sample lyric 'Jolene, I'm a woman too, the games you play ain't nothing new, so you don't want no heat with me, Jolene.'

AliasGrace47 · 17/10/2024 00:19

biscuit, that's perfect! 😅My mum is a conspiracy theorist and she hates the magic flute bc of the Freemason stuff. It's still one of my fave operas, I just try & ignore the sexist bits. I do like Papageno learning to stop playing around & be faithful to Papagena. Monostatos is punished for harassing Pamina. The Queen of the Night is such a vibrant character, but yes, she's the villain, not the cult leader 🙄

CanadianJohn · 17/10/2024 01:02

I always liked "I'm an Indian too" from the musical "Annie get your gun"

<whispers> I still like the song, but I can't admit it

SapphireSeptember · 17/10/2024 02:49

MarieDeGournay · 12/10/2024 12:21

Not to mention 'Delilah'😱
Deano's comment
I do love a lot of the classic musicals, but wouldn't want to take them as a guide for right living.
is very wise.

There's a whole lotta -isms going on in popular song, and if you start factoring in the private lives of the performers, it's a real minefield.

I have no settled opinion about what to do about that; I can't say I never want to hear a Michael Jackson song on the radio ever again because of what he did to children, but I am sure I never want to hear a song that actually makes a recognisable uncritical reference to the likes of violence against women or racism or paedophilia in the lyrics. That's not entertainment.

At least that's what I think at 12.20 on 12.10.24!

I can think of a few songs/music videos that reference child abuse and domestic violence. Frozen by Within Temptation, The Last Song I'm Wasting On You by Evanescence, I'm Not Jesus by Apocalyptica, Never Again by Nickelback, Down With The Sickness by Disturbed.

Just reread your comment and see you wrote 'uncritical'. 🤦🏻‍♀️ I need to go to bed!

MissEsmeWatson · 20/10/2024 14:50

Do you mind another derail? "The Phantom of the Opera". Yeah you love it, I love it, we all love it, poor Phantom. But... he'd been watching and grooming Christine since she was seven! Seven! And then pretending he was her deceased father - nasty. But, you know, he was bound to have problems because of his childhood and all that, so we can forgive him. Until we watch "Love Never Dies" , and realise he's just a cunt.