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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

OKLAHOMA!

102 replies

Treaclewell · 12/10/2024 10:44

When I was a child I enjoyed musicals with not much thought, but they had a lot of darkness to them. While holed up with a broken arm I've been revisiting, and just watched Oklahoma from the Proms. Very good, but what about the young men? Not just Jud Fry, to whom I shall return, but the rest. Avid customers for Ali Hakim's postcard merchandise, clients of burlesque and other things a gentleman never mentions, and that is almost presented as innocent. What do you expect when they ride for days on end with just a pony for a friend? It's the way things are. Jud, on the other hand is a very familiar figure. Now, he wouldn't be lurking in the smokehouse with his collection of pictures, but in room with wifi, and his longing for something real and his murderous response to rejection. He has already killed where he was turned down. Was he based on a real case of the time, an early incel? And why on earth did Laurey, whose gut was telling her he was a wrong'un, lead him on? I don't think I can watch it again.

OP posts:
BonfireLady · 12/10/2024 13:32

CrossPurposes · 12/10/2024 13:20

I think everybody needs to see that number.

Amazing! Never seen that before.

The lyrics are hilarious too: (paraphrasing) "I'm gorgeous, surely that's all the matters? I like big muscles on a man, cos that's what matters too".

Great advice from DeanElderberry:

I do love a lot of the classic musicals, but wouldn't want to take them as a guide for right living.

I love musicals, old and new. I often play them out loud and sing along (badly), much to my children's despair/bored acceptance. Occasionally one will sing along with me and we'll dance for a bit, generally while I'm chopping veg or similar. But mostly I just get "the look" or ignored.

And yes, I agree with PPs that these problems go outside of musicals. I'm still going to sing along to Don't Stand So Close to Me, The Ballad of Tom Jones and more, even though the lyrics are pretty 🤢 I draw the line at Daniel Beddingfield's multiple stalking/co-ercion sounding lyrics** but that's based on me not liking the tunes.

** From recollection, he sings a lot about loving someone even if they want to get away.

Great thread. Thanks OP!

LucyandLudwig · 12/10/2024 13:39

PercyGherkin · 12/10/2024 12:27

I went to see that revival of Oklahoma! recently. They made a point of saying they hadn’t changed the script, it was all in the production and direction. It was not a laugh a minute. The bit when they are all bidding for the women’s picnics was very much the men paying for women; Jud was terrifying; Laurey covered in blood in trauma induced shock as everyone else sings around her - it stuck with me but I was very glad I hadn’t invited my mum for a fun night out.

I saw this too - with Arthur Darvill as Curly?
I thought it was excellent and had never really considered how dark the plot is.
Jud is a total incel!
The blood-slpattered ending was fantastic but very dark.

TempestTost · 12/10/2024 13:44

Clotheshanger · 12/10/2024 11:31

God, let us not take our sexual politics from musicals!

I played Nancy in Oliver! a million years at school, and got a standing ovation for my ‘As Long As He Needs Me’, where a prostitute sings of her pimp, who later kills her:

AS LONG AS HE NEEDS ME
OH YES, HE DOES NEED ME
IN SPITE OF WHAT YOU SEE,
I’M SURE THAT HE NEEDS ME

WHO ELSE WOULD LOVE HIM STILL
WHEN THEY’VE BEEN USED SO ILL?
HE KNOWS I ALWAYS WILL
AS LONG AS HE NEEDS ME!

I mean, I was fifteen. Not a great message.

I don't quite understand your thinking here.

Has there ever been any sense that we were supposed to think Nancy was making a sensible choice, and Bill was a stand up guy?

Because it seems to me we are clearly supposed to see Nancy as a very kind person who is so damaged she sees abuse as love, and Bill as an evil psychopath.

MarieDeGournay · 12/10/2024 13:54

TempestTost · 12/10/2024 13:44

I don't quite understand your thinking here.

Has there ever been any sense that we were supposed to think Nancy was making a sensible choice, and Bill was a stand up guy?

Because it seems to me we are clearly supposed to see Nancy as a very kind person who is so damaged she sees abuse as love, and Bill as an evil psychopath.

I think there are also songs which are awful in context, but if you hear them on the radio [if anybody actually does that any more!] you don't get that - for instance I've just checked the lyrics of 'As Long as He Needs Me' and it doesn't actually mention physical violence - she could be talking about a DH who never empties the dishwasher and forgets their anniversary!

Whereas 'I felt the knife in my hand...' is blatantly femicidal.

This discussion probably shows that we all live in a kind of soup of enjoyment and disapproval and earworms and horror and tunes we can hum and guilty pleasures and a whole medley of thoughts about popular music, and there's probably no way out Smile

Beebopmoon · 12/10/2024 14:04

Clotheshanger · 12/10/2024 11:31

God, let us not take our sexual politics from musicals!

I played Nancy in Oliver! a million years at school, and got a standing ovation for my ‘As Long As He Needs Me’, where a prostitute sings of her pimp, who later kills her:

AS LONG AS HE NEEDS ME
OH YES, HE DOES NEED ME
IN SPITE OF WHAT YOU SEE,
I’M SURE THAT HE NEEDS ME

WHO ELSE WOULD LOVE HIM STILL
WHEN THEY’VE BEEN USED SO ILL?
HE KNOWS I ALWAYS WILL
AS LONG AS HE NEEDS ME!

I mean, I was fifteen. Not a great message.

Or (not a film or musical), but Tammy Wynette (was it Tammy?) singing 'Stand By Your Man.' I was quite young when it was released and on TOTP. Hated it with passion, even as a little girl.

AliasGrace47 · 12/10/2024 14:34

I agree they can be analysed & still appreciated. I don't think productions now should change words, but direction may be different as our sympathies adjust.
I've been a musical fan since I was a toddler, & while some like Carousel & 7 Brides are quite grim in the core message, lots are proto-feminist. R& H often focus on interesting women : Nellie in South Pacific, Maria in Sound of Music, Anna in The King & I. Fiddler On The Roof is v strongly feminist.
Maria in West Side Story could be a bit more interesting, though tbf Tony isn't the most fascinating either. Anita & the tomboyish Anybodys are better imo.
Evita, Sweet Charity & Cabaret have female protagonists who are somewhat stereotyped bit still interesting. I suppose it continues from the tradition of opera being about a woman : the show may not be particularly feminist, but she can't be a Stepford wife figure bc that would be too boring.

TempestTost · 12/10/2024 14:50

MarieDeGournay · 12/10/2024 13:54

I think there are also songs which are awful in context, but if you hear them on the radio [if anybody actually does that any more!] you don't get that - for instance I've just checked the lyrics of 'As Long as He Needs Me' and it doesn't actually mention physical violence - she could be talking about a DH who never empties the dishwasher and forgets their anniversary!

Whereas 'I felt the knife in my hand...' is blatantly femicidal.

This discussion probably shows that we all live in a kind of soup of enjoyment and disapproval and earworms and horror and tunes we can hum and guilty pleasures and a whole medley of thoughts about popular music, and there's probably no way out Smile

Yes, this makes sense though.

The songs in a musical are just a moment in time within the whole story. From the perspective of the character singing.

But they need to be a believable sentiment for that person. Nancy really believes that what she is saying - which might be a totally different thing if she were talking about her man who never puts the trash out. The sentiment is believable to her because it could, in another person's life, with a different man, be fine. If she were thinking about him as a violent thug the penny might drop and in the story it doesn't.

If a listener doesn't know the play you could imagine any kind of scenario the song fits. I don't see that as problematic. Presumably if they see it at some point they will be struck by the difference between the romantic sentiments and Nancy's real situation.

I think it's actually a very moralistic tale in a lot of ways, the people who deceive themselves suffer the consequences, even if it's very sadly because they don't know any better. Nancy is a victim, you never get the sense she deserves what she gets. The evil characters are pretty unabashedly evil, you don't really see any goodness in Bill at any point, and very little in Fagin. So it seems really weird to me as an example of a story that is problematic. It's pretty openly about women and children being exploited by bad men.

Freemanhardyandwillis · 12/10/2024 15:24

I love Seven Brides and, as disturbing as the idea is, it could have been even worse: the original plan was to kidnap the preacher too and....what? Force them all to marry and repopulate the compound Pontipee farm by spring?? 😮 Luckily they had time to sing and dance and fall properly in love before beginning their lives of drudgery in the mountains. 😂

Rocknrollstar · 12/10/2024 15:28

Calamity Jane was made at a time when the US government was trying to get women to give up the jobs they had during the war and become SAHM again. Hence, Doris Day only got her man when she put on a frock and baked a pie. The worst is Gigi where Leslie Caron is actually being groomed to become a courtesan.Louis Jordan has no intention of marrying her. Oh, and Fiddler on the Roof may be a musical biscuit and cake but it is still depressing. We cry all the way through, everytime.

RethinkingLife · 12/10/2024 16:06

Luckily they had time to sing and dance and fall properly in love before beginning their lives of drudgery in the mountains

Unexpectedly, a long time ago I read a paper about female suicide. One of the references was to a book about Pioneer Women and how hard their lives could be. According to the book (which I've not been able to identify since), there was a relatively high suicide rate as well as questionable deaths that weren't/couldn't be scrutinised that well.

Not the appropriate references but related on the vast scale of the drudgery and isolation amidst the regular horrors of high mortality rates, poor healthcare etc.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prairie_madness

Dolls, Vassals, and Drudges - Pioneer Women in the West. Journal title. Western Historical Quarterly. Vol issue date. Jan 1972. Volume. 3. Issue. 1 Author. Larson, T.

There are books that detail how these eventually contributed to relatively early women's suffrage in some US states.

Prairie madness - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prairie_madness

Freemanhardyandwillis · 13/10/2024 07:54

@RethinkingLife Interesting! Have you seen the film The Homesman on this? Bleak.

Phineyj · 13/10/2024 08:20

I just played in a production of "Annie" (Junior version) and let's just say there are quite a few safeguarding issues in that tale. Wonderful tunes though.

I watched Cavalleria Rusticana recently too and hadn't realised until I did a bit of research afterwards what an absolutely smash hit it was for many years after it was first written. The sexual politics in that, dear me. Although I suppose at least it's the chap who gets fatally stabbed rather than the woman.

I wonder if Sicilians found it offensive?!

And don't get me started on 'Carmen'...

You can get away with anything if you write a good enough tune, I reckon!

BonfireLady · 13/10/2024 09:34

You can get away with anything if you write a good enough tune, I reckon!

Definitely! I've said above that I'm a big fan of the older musicals. I've seen and loved Oklahoma, Carousel and Cabaret on stage as well as lots of Andrew Lloyd Webber stuff etc.

There are examples of all sorts of "interesting" messages in all sorts of them, not just in the obvious places.

Spoiler alert below: Hamilton, the musical. Although it's based on historical events and people, so it's a bit like talking about a spoiler alert if someone hasn't seen Titanic 😁

Take Hamilton for example. It's written about a previous era but through a modern lens. Personally I love it that they've switched all the historical figures within the story from being white to black and are using what might typically be thought of as "Music Of Black Origin" (rap, on this occasion) to mix it all up a bit. Although it's reflective of societal attitudes towards woman at that time, with the Schuyler sisters needing to marry well for status and protection of family wealth and name etc, it also has a subconscious narrative flowing through it where women are held in a similar kind of regard (accessories to men) today.

Dear Theadosia is a beautiful duet, all in harmony, sung by the two main characters when they both become fathers for the first time. You'll Be Back is a deliberately comedic song about the American revolution through the eyes of King George.

Both songs involve gaslighting but this is explored in very different ways. In the King George song, the audience is invited in to see his desperate attempt at gaslighting the American public in to not wanting independence and to laugh at the absurdity of it e.g. the song ends with King George saying "I will kill your friends and family to remind you of my love". However, as gorgeous as Dear Theadosia is - and the sentiment expressed within it - it's also a gaslighter's charter but in this case, the audience is gaslight too. He sings about how he'll always be there in the way that his father wasn't, that everything he does now has meaning and it's all about family... We believe in him and later end up forgiving him as a loveable rogue, despite him wanting to have an affair with his wife's sister and going on to sleep with a lady who tricks him.

Despite his promises, it's not long before he ignores his wife and family because he's busy. We don't even get to meet his daughter - she's just a footnote in a song, where his son laments not having a brother (only a sister). Even his son doesn't get his attention in the capacity of "just being a dad". In the song That Would Be Enough we hear his wife Eliza begging him to recognise the importance of family and to notice her instead of just focusing on war with the lyrics, including "let me be a part of the narrative".

Even when Eliza says in a later song (after she finds out he's slept with another woman) that she's "erasing myself from the narrative" it's clear that she knows she's always been a bit part as "a wife", no matter what she does.... because even though she demonstrates strength in that song she ultimately accepts that her loveable rogue loves her in his own special way. The way where he gets to stick his willy wherever he wants, run off to war, leave her to pick up the pieces and then swan back in with a sorry when the shit really hits the fan and she's weakened by grief when their son dies. How very dutiful of her. The message is still very much Stand By Your Man if you want a happy ending.

All that said, I adore this musical. I've seen it twice and would love to go again. <cue lots of earworms in my head..."...when you hear the British canons go BOOM!">

Edited to correct errors in grammar/punctuation. Hope I got them all!

Apollo441 · 13/10/2024 09:34

50's was a golden age for musicals. There were some great tunes but social attitudes could cause a raised eyebrow these days. Was it in South Pacific where she almost faints and literallly runs away on to finding out the children (shock horror) were mixed race? But maybe they were pushing for change as she comes to accept it.

Treaclewell · 13/10/2024 12:05

"You've got to be taught before it's too late...to hate all the people your relatives hate".
I've found 'green grow the lilacs' on youtube, performed by the US Navy as part of celebrating indigenous culture, an Indian play. Oklahoma sticks surprisingly close to the dialogue. Eller appears to be wearing a more ethnic style of dress. Jud is called Jeeter which wouldn't sing well, but Laurey sees him as just as off putting, tho no mention of photos in the smokehouse. She's just deciding to go to the party with Ado Annie before I took a break from the accents.
Aint the internet wonderful? I knew about the source way back, but it didn't seem relevant, lost in the past.

OP posts:
SundayShine · 13/10/2024 14:27

Gigi - thank heaven for little girls, so much wrong.

I know it's not really a musical but Breakfast at Tiffany's - it's basically a block of flats for prostitutes, money for the powder room, male & female. And poor Audrey Hepburn escaping her childbride marriage and the domestic drudgery of the step children.

I'm never sure what message we're supposed to take from it - marriage is about being careful who you sell your youth to.

DeanElderberry · 13/10/2024 14:33

and Mickey Rooney's yellowface

NoBinturongsHereMate · 13/10/2024 18:59

biscuitandcake · 12/10/2024 13:30

Thats based on Charle's Dickinsons book though which absolutely is about social evils at the time - its a very bad thing that Nancy, a lovely sweet person, is being pimped out by her abusive boyfriend and is eventually murdered by him. Its still happening today and people still think its bad just as (some) Victorians CD included did.

Lots of musicals do this though - take actually quite dark story lines (the book Fiddler on The Roof is based on is very depressing) and make a fun song and dance number out of it. Its not really (just) a social attitudes of the time thing - its a musicals liking wildly inappropriate subject matter thing. As satirised in the Producers (Springtime, for Hitler, in Geerrrmanyyy)

I'm not sure it is necessarily inapproriate subject matter, though. Certainly not Fiddler or Oliver.

Dark, yes, but the musical doesn't try to hide it it either case. Some of the songs are jaunty, some are sad, but they aren't 'making a fun song and dance number' out of the overall story. Like Bollywood masala movies the singing and dancing brings people in, but done well it is a way to get important stories and messages to people who might not otherwise see them.

As long as he needs me or Anatevka aren't fun and aren't condoning the subject matter. They use a tune to stop people turning away, and make them actually look. (Amitedly it doesn't always work, you only have to look at the terribly inappropriate songs chosen for wedsign first dances to realise a lot of people don't listen to lyrics.)

lonelywater · 13/10/2024 19:39

You can get away with anything if you write a good enough tune, I reckon!
Er, no. Proof can be provided on request-be warned, you won't believe this ever got published, let alone became a massive hit.

pontefractals · 14/10/2024 07:39

lonelywater · 13/10/2024 19:39

You can get away with anything if you write a good enough tune, I reckon!
Er, no. Proof can be provided on request-be warned, you won't believe this ever got published, let alone became a massive hit.

You can't just leave that hanging there, I need to know now (please)!

BonfireLady · 14/10/2024 07:57

pontefractals · 14/10/2024 07:39

You can't just leave that hanging there, I need to know now (please)!

I'm going to take a "thinking out of the box" guess. Is it Pumped Up Kicks @lonelywater ?

I always loved that song and would/do happily sing along. It was my children who informed me it was about school shootings from the POV of the shooter 🤦‍♀️

(I'm assuming it's not and that it's actually something worse. I too am intrigued!)

Edited to clarify

Catabogus · 14/10/2024 08:28

This is great timing for a thread as I was just wondering about a feminist re-interpretation of Oklahoma! after listening to it yesterday! It’s not just about Jud the incel and Laurey - Aunt Eller is a very strong female character, and what about Ado Annie and Will Parker? Oh the face of it Ado Annie is a stereotyped not very bright young woman who can’t say no to men (and can’t understand what’s really going on), but if you look at the end of “All Er Nothin” she is the one who appears to have the upper hand:

”With you it's all er nuthin'
All for you and nuthin' for me
But if a wife is wise, she's gotta realise
That men like you are wild and free.
So I ain't gonna fuss, ain't gonna frown
Have your fun, go out on the town,
Stay up late and don't come home till three!
And go right off to sleep if you're sleepy,
It’s no use waitin' up for me”

I was going to listen to Oliver next but I think that one might be more of a struggle for a rehabilitation somehow…

wulves · 14/10/2024 08:33

Watching Oklahoma as a child, it has always given me the creeps and felt very dark.

ElectiveAffinities · 14/10/2024 08:43

I watched Cavalleria Rusticana recently too and hadn't realised until I did a bit of research afterwards what an absolutely smash hit it was for many years after it was first written. The sexual politics in that, dear me. Although I suppose at least it's the chap who gets fatally stabbed rather than the woman.
I wonder if Sicilians found it offensive?!
And don't get me started on 'Carmen'...

Most of this applies to opera too. Madam Butterfly, Manon Lescaut, Tosca….the women don’t come out of it well. To put it mildly.

Catabogus · 14/10/2024 08:53

Oh, I was just thinking that Cavalleria Rusticana does a lot better than so many other operas (yes, Carmen included) in that it’s the man who gets stabbed not the woman.