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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

LGB Alliance conference disrupted by TRAs

624 replies

Imnobody4 · 11/10/2024 17:23

Do these idiots really think they are clever.

https://x.com/JamesEsses/status/1844755779665948762?t=8n-3lIZxX9BIED6MRh9pGg&s=19

🚨Breaking🚨

Trans activists have just disrupted the annual Conference being held by LGB Alliance by releasing insects in the main hall.

These nasty individuals who seek to disrupt a peaceful conference of lesbian and gay people show themselves up to be the real bigots.

x.com

https://x.com/JamesEsses/status/1844755779665948762?s=19&t=8n-3lIZxX9BIED6MRh9pGg

OP posts:
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39
RedToothBrush · 25/10/2024 22:47

MarieDeGournay · 25/10/2024 10:28

ArcheryAnnie You are absolutely right re the extremism of it all. The subsequent statements by these children seem to be deliberately escalating the issue - they've explicitly said they will get more and more extreme.

I think you've identified something there that has been forming in my mind for a while - extremism existing as a thing in itself rather than a means to achieve an end.
This is all very contentious of course, and I am NOT condoning it, but:
there is a long tradition of aggrieved groups staging 'spectaculars' to get the attention of the government and the public - negative attention, but nonetheless, attention. That leads to some form of negotiation and hopefully some form of agreement and settlement.

What seems to be happening now is that the 'spectacular' is all there is, and is the alpha and the omega of activism. Throw soup at paintings. At people. Block traffic. Set off fire bombs. Attack speakers. Release bugs. Then move on to the next stunt. And there may well be overlap between the people doing these actions, so after you've 'done' a painting in support of the Just Stop Oil, do you then look around for something or someone else to throw something at, because that's all you do? Keeping acting, don't pause to think or debate. No debate, just action.

And as you say, ArcheryAnnie, the 'stunts' become more extreme - look at what is happening in France with TRAs setting fire to buildings, arming themselves, and issuing very credible death threats.

This kind of campaigning seems to be all about the medium, not the message. Feck the message, where's my next adrenaline-rush action?

These kids have been told 'If you do this then it's more likely that you will get what you want. They deserve it anyway. If you don't prove yourself to the cause then you aren't a true believer and you won't get what you want.'

In something of a circular argument.

Because that's what happens when you are groomed by an extremist and join a nefarious organisation.

But we can't talk about that here.

IwantToRetire · 25/10/2024 22:57

I dunno, I think it's a desperation to gang up against an enemy in order to emphasise the 'in group'. Even if the enemy is a strawman.

I think it is about competitive victimhood.

This seems to be especially true of the white middle class. If not comfortably off, have enough of the background, education, etc., to have advantages.

But they know that within their own circle and others, the real aspirational roles to have are as the most oppressed.

Which they dont have.

So they have to acquire and more importantly get the world to agree with them.

Not much grassroots kudos to being white middle class.

FallinUltra · 25/10/2024 23:38

IwantToRetire · 25/10/2024 22:57

I dunno, I think it's a desperation to gang up against an enemy in order to emphasise the 'in group'. Even if the enemy is a strawman.

I think it is about competitive victimhood.

This seems to be especially true of the white middle class. If not comfortably off, have enough of the background, education, etc., to have advantages.

But they know that within their own circle and others, the real aspirational roles to have are as the most oppressed.

Which they dont have.

So they have to acquire and more importantly get the world to agree with them.

Not much grassroots kudos to being white middle class.

Working class children are groomed with cigarettes and alcohol, followed sometimes by drugs. Upper middle class children with a cause and victimhood.

The statements made by some in those Trans Kids Deserve Better materials are bone chilling. Even if some of them know perfectly well that LGBA people arenkt dangerous, some of them have truly been convinced that everyone hates them. That is profound emotional abuse, and any parents telling their children that should be investigated for child abuse. Any group leaders should be prosecuted, as they are not only emotionally abusing the children, but radicalising them and grooming them for terrorism.

RunsWithDinosaurs · 26/10/2024 01:01

I don’t think I can bring myself to read this. The snippets here are drivel.

They didn’t do it during Jamie’s session. They did it before she uttered a word and that’s clearly what they were told “she wanted to talk about”. What she actually talked about was how she came to the realisation that this “health service” was an unregulated, unscientific attack on LGB children. One that resulted in many cases in their sterilisation. She talked about the impact of whistleblowing on her and her family, and her determination to support LGB children to believe they’re perfect just the way they are without hormones or chopping bits of their body off…

But the adults driving this couldn’t possibly let them hear her compassion. Better to get the kids out of there and maintaining their beliefs that we’re all hateful monsters.

SinnerBoy · 26/10/2024 04:24

Helleofabore · Yesterday 20:42

Yes. Why would any teenager go into a conference and stay for hours if they didn’t feel physically safe?

Because unsafe has transmogrified into "Disagrees with me." And they are desperately trying to portray themselves as desperate and brave, in the face of a dangerous mob of middle aged lesbians.

I mean, it's real Daniel in the Lion's Den stuff, isn't it?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 26/10/2024 11:22

RunsWithDinosaurs · 26/10/2024 01:01

I don’t think I can bring myself to read this. The snippets here are drivel.

They didn’t do it during Jamie’s session. They did it before she uttered a word and that’s clearly what they were told “she wanted to talk about”. What she actually talked about was how she came to the realisation that this “health service” was an unregulated, unscientific attack on LGB children. One that resulted in many cases in their sterilisation. She talked about the impact of whistleblowing on her and her family, and her determination to support LGB children to believe they’re perfect just the way they are without hormones or chopping bits of their body off…

But the adults driving this couldn’t possibly let them hear her compassion. Better to get the kids out of there and maintaining their beliefs that we’re all hateful monsters.

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the best possible 'punishment' for the children who did the actual releasing (normal criminal process for the adults behind it) is to have to listen to all the conference talks - and take a test on the content to show they really were listening.

RunsWithDinosaurs · 26/10/2024 11:37

NoBinturongsHereMate · 26/10/2024 11:22

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the best possible 'punishment' for the children who did the actual releasing (normal criminal process for the adults behind it) is to have to listen to all the conference talks - and take a test on the content to show they really were listening.

That would be fantastic. Listen to some adults that are sensibly concerned about those concerns. Listen to adults that have been down the route you’ve been pursuing and regretted it. Not these adults that are cheering you on for your delusions.

One thought that really struck me at the conference, looking across the floor was wondering how many of the people in that room were thinking “if I’d been a child now instead of 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago would I have gone down this path? And what a wonderful life that I have now, where I’m comfortable in my skin and my sex would I have missed out on.” I reckon it would have been a decent proportion.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/10/2024 11:47

SinnerBoy · 26/10/2024 04:24

Helleofabore · Yesterday 20:42

Yes. Why would any teenager go into a conference and stay for hours if they didn’t feel physically safe?

Because unsafe has transmogrified into "Disagrees with me." And they are desperately trying to portray themselves as desperate and brave, in the face of a dangerous mob of middle aged lesbians.

I mean, it's real Daniel in the Lion's Den stuff, isn't it?

It's not funny really, but this has made me laugh. It's that or cry, isn't it? Dangerous mob of middle aged lesbians indeed!

popeydokey · 26/10/2024 14:41

NoBinturongsHereMate · 26/10/2024 11:22

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the best possible 'punishment' for the children who did the actual releasing (normal criminal process for the adults behind it) is to have to listen to all the conference talks - and take a test on the content to show they really were listening.

I agree, and I'd go further than that. I'd say if you want to register disagreement with someone you should be able to state what their opposing position is, in a way the side taking that position would agree was accurate.
Then go into which points you disagree with.

The fact none of them seem actually aware of what they're opposing is sort of hilarious. All of this could've been sorted out years ago offer a few kombuchas if anyone actually wanted to engage. But they're too scared, dishonest, or muddled.

SinnerBoy · 26/10/2024 17:45

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · Today 11:47

It's not funny really, but this has made me laugh. It's that or cry, isn't it?

I know, it's probably why I'm such a piss taker. I'm also firmly of the opinion that contemptible people deserve contemptuous commentary, although I'm more of the opinion that these children have been used and pointed in the direction of something they barely comprehend.

Little shits, but I do feel a bit sorry for them. They're victims of propaganda and careful cultivation by older people.

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2024 08:01

NoBinturongsHereMate · 26/10/2024 11:22

I'm increasingly of the opinion that the best possible 'punishment' for the children who did the actual releasing (normal criminal process for the adults behind it) is to have to listen to all the conference talks - and take a test on the content to show they really were listening.

This is a really important point to be considering. And one that is really tied up with social media use in general. I've been around a bit on it and seen a lot, so I had many many years to give this thought. More than most; I've been in online communities since 1998 - some much more healthy than others. And it also fits with my degree in terms of media use and understanding propaganda. We aren't talking about the subject of radicalisation isn't something we are doing nearly enough.

I started this thread years ago on the subject of pink brain / blue brain. https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3610447-Pink-Brain-Blue-Brain-Some-research-on-radicalisation-and-brains
Please take the time to read the text and links in the above thread. It's fascinating. Note the date on that and reflect on it of where we are now in the context of Cricketgate.

Summary of above thread: There was some research starting to come through about how research was showing that the brains of terrorist extremists were wired differently to other people.

There's also more in this excellent article which touches on similar (if you don't want to trawl through old threads).

https://time.com/5881567/extremism-violence-causes-research/

What they then found was that exposure to a broad range of ideas and thoughts, not only helped to deradicalise them, but also rewired their brain.

In the 1990s, social psychologists Jonathan Baron at the University of Pennsylvania and Philip Tetlock at the University of California, Berkeley, developed the concept of “sacred values” to counter economic theories that suggested everything had a price. Certain values (like human life, justice, civil liberties, environmental or religious devotion) could be so sacred to people that they would be unwilling to act against them, no matter the cost or consequence.

Atran, who had been studying values for decades through the lens of anthropology, began applying this concept to the study of violent extremists after 9/11. It occurred to him then that, perhaps, the perpetrators had committed the suicide attacks in defense of deep values the rest of the world had been overlooking. By 2007, Atran had advanced this line of thinking in several articles about jihadist terrorists. His Artis colleagues found evidence that material incentives may backfire when adversaries see the issues at the heart of a dispute (like land and nationhood) as “sacred.”

The Artis team continued to hone the connection between sacred values and violence into 2014, when a comment from President Barack Obama’s Director of National Intelligence, James Clapper Jr., gave them a renewed sense of purpose. In an interview, Clapper said that the U.S. had underestimated ISIS militants because predicting a group’s will to fight was “an imponderable.” In response to that comment, Atran and his colleagues decided to use their knowledge of sacred values to measure militants’ will to fight, which they believed was indeed “ponderable.”

That same year, they did survey-based research on networks in Spain and Morocco responsible for the 2004 Madrid bombings. It found that people were more willing to sacrifice their lives if they were part of a close-knit group that shared their sacred values. They also began laying the groundwork for a separate study, eventually published in 2017, that found that among members of various forces who fought against ISIS, those who expressed the most willingness to fight and die for abstract values like nationhood, heritage and religion tended to prioritize those values over their social groups, like family.

AND

Over the following weeks, the team analyzed the data. As expected, the men expressed greater willingness to fight and die for their sacred values than for their nonsacred values. More interesting were what parts of the brain appeared involved with each question. When participants rated their willingness to sacrifice for their sacred values (defending the Qur’an, for example), parts of the brain linked to deliberation (the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, inferior frontal gyrus and parietal cortex, which Pretus describes as parts of the fronto-parietal or “executive-control network”) were far less active than when they rated their willingness to kill and die for issues they cared about less (like the availability of halal food in public schools). Dr. Oscar Vilarroya, the lead neuro-scientist on the team, says this indicates that humans don’t deliberate about their sacred values: “We just act on them.”

While this may seem like common sense, the finding was significant, since nearly all sacred-values research to that point had been based on surveys and other tools that assessed what people said—not tied to brain activity. “When you’re taking a social survey, you can lie,” explains Atran. “But brain patterns can’t be faked.” It was the first published study scanning the brains of extremists.

Knowing extremists essentially don’t deliberate when considering the values most important to them confirmed something Atran long believed: that deradicalization programs focused on altering extremists’ beliefs through logic and reasoning, or through trade-offs and material incentives, are doomed to fail. Others had made this argument to explain why programs like France’s civics- and reward-focused deradicalization program, launched in late 2016, had flopped within a year. Here was brain science to support the case.

There was one finding of the study, though, that provided a glimmer of hope for an alternative approach: the areas in the brain linked to deliberation lit up when extremists realized their “peers” weren’t as willing to resort to violence to defend a particular value. And when given the opportunity, post–brain scan, to revise their initial answers to the question “How willing are you to fight and die for this value?” many of them adjusted their rating to better align with their peers. Hamid says this shows that peer groups, like family and friends, play a powerful role in determining whether an extremist will become violent. They will never be able to change the extremist’s core views or values, he says, but they can convince that person that violence is or is not an acceptable way to defend those values. This finding, Atran believes, could have real implications for governments and organizations working in counterterrorism.

“The lesson … is don’t try to undermine their values,” Atran says. “Try to show them there are other ways of committing to their values.”

And if this hasn't started to make you wonder about whether this is being deliberately weaponised:

And, in a twist, the U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado got in touch in 2016 seeking to collaborate and study how a cadet’s sacred values and identity with varying groups affect their willingness to fight and die. This April, the Academy, with Artis’ assistance, completed a small study that found that cadets who both viewed religion as a sacred value and strongly identified as a member of a religious group took greater risks than their peers in virtual combat situations. One key takeaway, according to Lieut. Colonel Chad C. Tossell, the director of the school’s Warfighter Effectiveness Research Center, is that the “spiritual strength” of soldiers is as important as the weapons and technology they use. An early draft of the study says the simulation designed for the research could be “useful for selection and training.”

Further to this we also have research on the effects to the brain of cults. Again cults have this notion of 'sacred values'
https://www.labroots.com/trending/neuroscience/15729/cults-change-brain

I don't want to expand further on the C word for obvious reasons, but it's necessary to mention it and let people make up their own minds.

We have a situation here with trans activism where children and young adults are being encouraged to live in an echo chamber of their own making with social media, repeating the same messages over and over again without exposure to an alternative view. Indeed 'no debate' was all about silencing that and making it impossible. And the Cricket Children were told to act to stop the one talk which aligned with this finding as the most effective way to deradicalise:
“Try to show them there are other ways of committing to their values.”

'Trans Values' would very much fall under the concept of 'sacred values'. Also see groups like 'Just Stop Oil' for the concept of political values as 'sacred values'. Just as much as nefarious religious groups have. And we are starting to see extremist behaviour along these lines in secular society.

We know that cults and extremists are higher risk to people who have a history of:
Emotional vulnerability
Dissociative states
Poor family relationships
Inadequate coping mechanisms
History of abuse or neglect
Exposure to eccentric family patterns
Substance abuse
Situational stress
Socioeconomic conditions

Various studies, including the Cass Review, have highlighted that kids who identify as trans are much more likely to exhibit the above. A history of family breakdown and abuse are particularly note worthy.

The other really interesting thing about the emergence of trans activism and extreme environmentalism is this clash with religion and how secular populations are much more supportive of these ideas. It's almost as if there is a human need for 'sacred values' particularly for certain more vulnerable individuals. Crucially they both prove a support network and community. I note the point in the first article on this thread about people in a close knit group being more likely to carry out extremist behaviour.

The research into 'the extremist brain' has been controversial and it makes people squeamish because of its implications. Likewise we see talk of parallels with cults regularly deleted.

But if we are to truly understand what's happening we need to consider the implications of echo chambers to the brain. And by this token, I actively encourage people to listen and read things by genderists rather than staying in a GC box and to also look for other points of reference in terms of behaviour patterns in other groups.

Given that the acts carried out by this group very much fit the current government definition of extremism as detailed here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/new-definition-of-extremism-2024/new-definition-of-extremism-2024
I think it wholly appropriate to be having this conversation that no one wants to address and acknowledge properly. We NEED to. This isn't going to get better unless we do. It's highly relevant to children's use of social media more widely and algorithms and to a vast range of issues parents might face: everything from beautification and obsessive habits relating to appearance, incelism, anorexia, environmentalism, extremism, recent riots, conspiracy theories... I could go on as the list is potentially limitless. And why the obsessive nature of any of these potentially puts any neuro diverse kid at particular risk.

I hope MN lets this post stand in view of that need for parents - as I'm sure there will be the usual monitors along shortly.

I'm also minded to reflect on the actions of various parents on MN and this notion of
“The lesson … is don’t try to undermine their values,” Atran says. “Try to show them there are other ways of committing to their values.”

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2024 08:05

That's really interesting, Red. Please save it offline in case it goes!

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2024 08:06

RunsWithDinosaurs · 26/10/2024 11:37

That would be fantastic. Listen to some adults that are sensibly concerned about those concerns. Listen to adults that have been down the route you’ve been pursuing and regretted it. Not these adults that are cheering you on for your delusions.

One thought that really struck me at the conference, looking across the floor was wondering how many of the people in that room were thinking “if I’d been a child now instead of 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago would I have gone down this path? And what a wonderful life that I have now, where I’m comfortable in my skin and my sex would I have missed out on.” I reckon it would have been a decent proportion.

“The lesson … is don’t try to undermine their values,” Atran says. “Try to show them there are other ways of committing to their values.”

And that's why the LGB Alliance is really 'dangerous' and 'a threat' to trans militancy.

I bet the majority in the room can see their lives may have been different - and not in a healthy way - if they were born post 2000. That's the entire point.

That's why there's a determination to frame them as 'anti-trans' rather than 'pro gay'.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2024 08:12

To what extent are 'sacred values' more fervently subscribed to because they require faith? (Harder to kill a phantom/can't reason someone out if a position they didnt arrive at through logic)

And a faith requirement arises out of an ideology that is inherently irrational.

The lack of internal logic is a feature not a bug.

It also appeals to our natural human wonder at things we can't understand. We can mistake opacity for profundity.

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2024 08:26

Often we crave authority and certainty to compensate for our own insecurities. Vulnerable people are ripe for exploitation for that reason. So another approach is to help said vulnerable people question their self defeating and self hating narratives.

To help people consider that they have more power, strength, and resilience than they realise, instil confidence and self belief.

Ironically, these activists are setting themselves up to be pilloried and despised - again I am thinking of children with what's sometimes called Oppositional Defiance Disorder - pushing boundaries in order to find a parent who is compassionate but firm, who takes charge, says no, but will also keep the child safe.

What they need is help to heal from their own sense of worthlessness and self-loathing. What I expect they've had is very permissive parenting. And that has come from a permissive culture, which can only really survive in the context of privilege.

They hate themselves because they are privileged, but haven't been properly cared for. This has left them vulnerable, and also given them resources that have enabled them to put themselves further at risk. It's perverse.

Kucinghitam · 27/10/2024 08:28

Great post @RedToothBrush, really interesting analysis.

Puts me in mind of "You can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves in to."

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2024 08:30

Anecdote.

About eight years ago, we met up with DHs friend and a bunch of his mates and previous colleagues who worked in tech for a meal. We didn't know any of the others previously. We got onto the subject of algorithms. DHs friend had just quit his job and was doing so soul-searching.

About 18 months ago he appeared on a BBC documentary as a whistleblower on social media.

Me and DH felt eight years ago he had been grossly naive - we'd lived all this already first hand. And had long left it behind by probably 8 - 10 years.

It's only now we are even starting to have some of these conversations and the level of understanding of the subject by politicians who are extremely far removed from this, is quite staggering.

It's really only those who have been particularly targeted on single issues - as a sacred value - that have started to wake up to this.

Meanwhile we know that various governments which are hostile to the UK have long been aware of all this. I mean, being authoritarians, it's how they keep power so they are a bit good at it.

Be under no illusions about this. Our government are about 20 years behind the curve of where we should be. It actively frightens me.

I have felt for a long time that there is a huge gap of knowledge in the House of Commons around the entire online industry. One of the crucial things with that is anyone who has really good high quality knowledge and experience of security and social media will be on a very good wage. Probably not enough to be financially independent because of their age though. For many going into politics as an MP would involve a cut in pay at this point in their careers when they have a big mortgage and kids. It makes it even less attractive as a job. I don't know how you get around this as the feeling is that MPs get paid too much but it means that such a crucial industry to our society is significantly underrepresented in parliament. I can't see It changing for another ten years when the financial liabilities of this group start to reduce.

BabaYagasHouse · 27/10/2024 08:35

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2024 08:05

That's really interesting, Red. Please save it offline in case it goes!

I was just coming on to say exactly this!

RedToothBrush · 27/10/2024 09:04

I am so frustrated by all of it.

We have an example of extremist behaviour when I've been pointing out the concerns for five years.

My brother transitioned well over 15 years ago and he wasn't the first in his social circle. My brother was a heavy user of online communities for the period immediately before this.

And I've seen all manner of alarming stuff online.

I feel like a broken record called Cassandra.

Thelnebriati · 27/10/2024 09:28

This page is archived; archive.fo/kH73B

Ereshkigalangcleg · 27/10/2024 09:38

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2024 08:26

Often we crave authority and certainty to compensate for our own insecurities. Vulnerable people are ripe for exploitation for that reason. So another approach is to help said vulnerable people question their self defeating and self hating narratives.

To help people consider that they have more power, strength, and resilience than they realise, instil confidence and self belief.

Ironically, these activists are setting themselves up to be pilloried and despised - again I am thinking of children with what's sometimes called Oppositional Defiance Disorder - pushing boundaries in order to find a parent who is compassionate but firm, who takes charge, says no, but will also keep the child safe.

What they need is help to heal from their own sense of worthlessness and self-loathing. What I expect they've had is very permissive parenting. And that has come from a permissive culture, which can only really survive in the context of privilege.

They hate themselves because they are privileged, but haven't been properly cared for. This has left them vulnerable, and also given them resources that have enabled them to put themselves further at risk. It's perverse.

🎯

Thelnebriati · 27/10/2024 09:58

Parentification and adultification are usually defined as unhealthy dynamics within a family; but the effects don't disappear when the child engages with the outside world.

www.oliverdrakefordtherapy.com/post/parentification-vs-adultification

popeydokey · 27/10/2024 10:36

Be under no illusions about this. Our government are about 20 years behind the curve of where we should be. It actively frightens me.
I have felt for a long time that there is a huge gap of knowledge in the House of Commons around the entire online industry.

I've had access to the WWW pretty much since it started and I've seen it evolve. I agree completely. I'm no tech expert but you have to have some understanding of where it all came from and how it's used. People are incredibly naive.

....

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2024 10:39

Also: this movement is situated in a very odd ideology that suggests that 'privilege' and 'success' make you a bad person. It's the knee jerk response to 'privilege makes you a better person', two sides of the same coin, in fact. Anyone who has benefited from any kind of 'privilege' has original sin and must atone, by suffering.

So I suppose some of the martyrdom comes from that guilt and self loathing.

Helleofabore · 27/10/2024 10:44

ArabellaScott · 27/10/2024 08:26

Often we crave authority and certainty to compensate for our own insecurities. Vulnerable people are ripe for exploitation for that reason. So another approach is to help said vulnerable people question their self defeating and self hating narratives.

To help people consider that they have more power, strength, and resilience than they realise, instil confidence and self belief.

Ironically, these activists are setting themselves up to be pilloried and despised - again I am thinking of children with what's sometimes called Oppositional Defiance Disorder - pushing boundaries in order to find a parent who is compassionate but firm, who takes charge, says no, but will also keep the child safe.

What they need is help to heal from their own sense of worthlessness and self-loathing. What I expect they've had is very permissive parenting. And that has come from a permissive culture, which can only really survive in the context of privilege.

They hate themselves because they are privileged, but haven't been properly cared for. This has left them vulnerable, and also given them resources that have enabled them to put themselves further at risk. It's perverse.

This is how it has come across from
the beginning. From when these kids were camping out and scaling walls.

Swipe left for the next trending thread