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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

663 replies

Autumnleavesareslippery · 07/10/2024 09:13

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 17:59

He's not a woman and very few people are going to see him as one, @PrettyPickle - you do get that, right? His sisters are unhappy with what he's doing.

And citing crappy BBC daytime soap "Doctors" gave me a real belly laugh, thank you.

Here it is, it's always been pushing genderist propaganda:

x.com/philiphensher/status/1844010004204130700

x.com/ripx4nutmeg/status/1810261498414907798

CautiousLurker · 09/10/2024 18:09

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 17:48

Sorry mate, can't be gay/lesbian/trans whilst dependent on me

One of these things is not like the other two.

Was about to come on to say this - nothing the OP has said (nor anything the other PPs here have posted) indicates any issues for a child who is LGB. I know I have no issues, having several extended family members who are G or L, including the child who thought she was a boy.

Conflating valid concerns for autistic children/YP expressing gender confusion, or the rights and sensitivities of vulnerable female siblings impacted by it, with homophobia is frankly disgusting.

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 18:12

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 17:50

Look, if the family dynamics change due to his life choices, then yes, there needs to be a dialogue and an understanding on both sides with accommodations otherwise, are you saying he has to be a clone of them or he will spoil things?

Can you see that after a child decides to come out as trans, some family members' needs will thereafter be mutually exclusive with others'?

It's not possible, for instance, for a male-born child to conform to female gender stereotypes and insist that they in fact are, and always have been, female, without upsetting female-born family members who know that that undermines the importance of their sex-based lived experience.

Talking is better than not talking, of course, but it doesn't make those issues go away, and in some cases makes matters worse, if, say, individual family members don't want to have to talk about it, or if people are upset or angry and choose their words suboptimally, or if one person unleashes a volley of prepared (most likely coached) rhetoric that others have no answer for and yet still don't really feel their concerns have been addressed. Sadly, such conversations don't tend to go according to some principle of "having a meaningful dialogue" that you seem to be imagining.

I'm sure you mean well, but I think you don't really get the intractable problems that transition inevitably causes anywhere other than in an entirely ideologically captured group.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 18:17

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 17:08

You see you are all making assumptions about me and assuming I have no personal experience or knowledge and I do. Doctors was just a timely watch that highlighted the harm intolerance can do - its a generalisation not life specific.

My parents divorced when I was young, are you saying they should have lived in misery together, giving me a totally wrong impression of what marriage was, to protect us. Are you saying that an adult person who decides not to have kids and the potential Grandparents are devastated, should have them, just to please the grandparents. The answer is of course not, but these decisions doesn't just affect them, it affects those around them and its only by accepting and talking things through with all stakeholders that we hopefully get through it . That is what I am saying about her son, he has a right to make his own choices and the family has to work with it. I have never said it wouldn't affect them. They need to talk to him, understand him, support him and address everyone's concerns - its a two way street. What you can't tell him, as an adult is that he can't do it! Well you can try but it won't be a good outcome.

Is doubling down on a double down, a quadruple down?

It's definitely the Gospel of Soaps isn't it?

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 18:22

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 17:43

Would you seriously do that to your child - surely accommodations should be made on both sides?

Sorry mate, can't be gay/lesbian/trans whilst dependent on me - well , yes, technically speaking you can say that but it doesn't bode well for a future relationship does it, sacrifice him for the wellbeing of everyone else??? It will take work but surely after the shock has worn off, there will be a lot of adjusting and it will need mutual support and understanding.

Trans people saying they can be gay or lesbians is homophobic.

So no, there shouldn't be 'accomodations' made to allow this because it's regressive homophobic bullshit made using the Trojan horse of 'its just like gay rights' which literally tramples all over and erased women's rights and homosexual rights in the process. And it still remains a fantasy which we are expected to uphold because you can't actually change sex.

Please do not try and weaponise homophobia against families whilst practicing your homophobia because it's rather gross.

I do hope that clarifies things for you.

ExtremelyPrivate · 09/10/2024 18:27

PrettyPickle · 09/10/2024 17:08

You see you are all making assumptions about me and assuming I have no personal experience or knowledge and I do. Doctors was just a timely watch that highlighted the harm intolerance can do - its a generalisation not life specific.

My parents divorced when I was young, are you saying they should have lived in misery together, giving me a totally wrong impression of what marriage was, to protect us. Are you saying that an adult person who decides not to have kids and the potential Grandparents are devastated, should have them, just to please the grandparents. The answer is of course not, but these decisions doesn't just affect them, it affects those around them and its only by accepting and talking things through with all stakeholders that we hopefully get through it . That is what I am saying about her son, he has a right to make his own choices and the family has to work with it. I have never said it wouldn't affect them. They need to talk to him, understand him, support him and address everyone's concerns - its a two way street. What you can't tell him, as an adult is that he can't do it! Well you can try but it won't be a good outcome.

No, of course posters aren't saying that people should never divorce because of effects on the family, or that people should have children to please grandparents. They aren't saying anything about those things art all, because this thread is about the very specific circumstances of a child/young adult claiming to be a sex other than there own, claiming to be the sex of a sibling (and doing so via grotesque stereotypes), and about the massive ramifications that has for siblings and the whole family.

Forgive me, Prettypickle, but are you^saying that because you have experience of just ... I don't know ... being in a family and having to make the ordinary accommodations between people that family life involves you have experience relevant to this thread? Or are you just being (understandably) reticent about gender-questioning-related issues in your family? If it is the former, can I suggest that you just stop digging?
I have never, ever, in any other MN thread learnt so much about what it is to be the sibling of a gender-questioning person, or what it feels like to be th e parent of someone who has a sustained trans-identification. There is so much detailed insightful reflection here, such a mass of rawly-felt relevant experience that it might be perhaps be better if you bowed out .
This shows why a topic (within the feminist board) specifically billed as for support rather than for debate is needed for families in this position.

ExtremelyPrivate · 09/10/2024 18:34

... oh and also (sorry to double post), but so much of the rawly felt experience here is of parenting a child with autism or other significant challenges. It isn't just about a 'lifestyle choice' it is about profound difficulties involving, in many cases, extensive needs for professional support. How is divorce or decisions about childbearing comparable? How is it ok to post platitudes without invoking equally raw and relevant experiences in your own personal experience

Ereshkigalangcleg · 09/10/2024 18:54

A thread about Doctors should people wish to discuss it further

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/5183769-5183769-doctors-on-bbc-utterly-infuriating

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 19:01

This shows why a topic (within the feminist board) specifically billed as for support rather than for debate is needed for families in this position.

Yes, I think so too. There are things this thread has raised for me that I would like to ask people's opinions on but to do so would totally hijack it for OP. But I'm also loath to start my own thread because things can go badly wrong with trans threads if you happen to catch the wrong crowd.

How would we go about getting MNHQ to add a new topic? Anyone know?

HaddyAbrams · 09/10/2024 19:10

SophiaCohle · 09/10/2024 19:01

This shows why a topic (within the feminist board) specifically billed as for support rather than for debate is needed for families in this position.

Yes, I think so too. There are things this thread has raised for me that I would like to ask people's opinions on but to do so would totally hijack it for OP. But I'm also loath to start my own thread because things can go badly wrong with trans threads if you happen to catch the wrong crowd.

How would we go about getting MNHQ to add a new topic? Anyone know?

A board for what? There's already a LGBT children Board.

But you can ask in site stuff if you want something else.

HaddyAbrams · 09/10/2024 19:12

Sorry, just realised my previous reply come across as really snippy! It wasn't meant to be!

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 19:25

I find these type of threads very revealing in terms of the non involved virtue signalling allies.

As pp described it, they are completely devoid of any concept of 'The dilemma of the Paradox of Tolerance'.

The only see a singular reason to protect a singular group. It's incredibly one dimensional. Which is unsurprising given as they support mindless unthinking repetition of mantras which are treated as law, such as Transwomen are women.

There is no visibility of any other group or comorbidity of other vulnerability in trans identifying young people. Despite Cass pointing out the high level of a wide range of different complex needs.

They can't see autism.

They can't see homosexuality.

They can't see trauma or abuse.

They can't see coercive control techniques.

They can't see love bombing.

They can't see a deep seating need to fit in to a community.

They can't see the identities of others.

They can't see the lived experiences of others.

They can't see the conflicting interests.

They can't see that there is no such thing as respect when it only is expected in one direction.

And the best responses they come out with are - you are being mean, I understand this because I did some training or a watched a TV programme parroting what activists said, you are not understanding your child, you are uneducated, you should go away and reflect on what youve just said as it's wrong, you should be ashamed.

And that's AFTER someone has shared their experiences of psychological harm, emotional blackmail, feelings of extreme guilt, questioning relentlessly if they are indeed the bad guy etc etc

None of it washes with me anymore. Im well past that ignorance, sanctimonious lecturing by people who are utterly detached from the reality and totally clueless.

I went away and thought about it. And I have been doing so FOR SEVENTEEN YEARS. That's longer than a lot of these trans identifying kids have been alive. This isn't new to me. I've heard it all. The attempts to shame and stigmatise no longer stick, because frankly if Id let them I'd have gone nuts.

And actually all it has done, has made me realise more that being an ally in this way, not having a clue, has harmed countless vulnerable young people. Far from being kind, it's acted to remove access to mental health support. It's removed parental support. It's created false expectations of life generally. It's set up people to reduce the dating pools and therefore many of the options for relationships you have in middle age and beyond. It has as yet unknown implications for physical health but, particularly for females high rates of complications and therefore a lesser quality of life in terms of physical health. And I haven't even touched on safeguarding implications.

And all this has been pushed with the snake oil and under the guise of being kind.

One of the things I detest most is this idea I hate my brother for being trans. No I don't. I hate the ideology and it's lies. I hate the fact it destroyed my family to uphold a fantasy that can't possibly exist. We haven't spoken in years and I don't expect that will ever change now. I don't want it too. But it doesn't mean I don't care. Of course I do. Sibling relationships are like that - they often make no sense and it's very possible to love but still dislike family members. You can still worrying about people you care about who you no longer wish to have in your life. And I about my parents. I worry about getting that phonecall saying he's no longer her, at far too early an age. But I know he's made his bed and he has to lie in it and I'll never change his mind. So what's the point. All trying to maintain a relationship would do would be to continue to hurt us both because of where we find ourselves because of this ideology.

The allies will NEVER understand this. They are detached from the emotion and reality. They are stuck with their mantras and black and white thinking.

if they fail to recognise the paradox and how denial of the truth doesn't change realities. They don't get the how failure to see the paradox of 'being kind' only where it suits their politics ensures harm.

Quoting fucking soap operas at me as a way to try and say 'well other people agree with me so I can't be wrong' as if this is about winning votes or public support rather than asking whether affirmation only is falling foul of the Law of Unintended Consequences and doing actual real life harms to minorities because they DON'T WANT TO SEE these inconvenient truths that counter their belief that they are being kind and good good people, really really says it all.

Why do they assume that I am a bad person and I want to be a bad person? Has it ever entered their heads that I wanted to do the best for someone I loved and that I want to do the best for as many people as possible because I AM KIND? It's just that I actually took a step back and asked questions about whether affirmation only was actually delivering on the promise that it would make things better and improve the world by being progressive and I found out that it's not. I found out that Being Kind sometimes means saying things people don't want to hear for their own wellbeing. I found out that Being Kind is only Kind of you consider the implications right across society.

Human rights are about balancing rights and not allowing supremacy. This is a male right supremacy movement which is regressive.

It's not kind.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 19:34

I think trying to explain the intensity of your own emotions that are completely conflicted and that are then meet with emotional manipulation both within the family and by complete strangers with their own political agenda is not something that is easy to convey.

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 19:40

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 19:25

I find these type of threads very revealing in terms of the non involved virtue signalling allies.

As pp described it, they are completely devoid of any concept of 'The dilemma of the Paradox of Tolerance'.

The only see a singular reason to protect a singular group. It's incredibly one dimensional. Which is unsurprising given as they support mindless unthinking repetition of mantras which are treated as law, such as Transwomen are women.

There is no visibility of any other group or comorbidity of other vulnerability in trans identifying young people. Despite Cass pointing out the high level of a wide range of different complex needs.

They can't see autism.

They can't see homosexuality.

They can't see trauma or abuse.

They can't see coercive control techniques.

They can't see love bombing.

They can't see a deep seating need to fit in to a community.

They can't see the identities of others.

They can't see the lived experiences of others.

They can't see the conflicting interests.

They can't see that there is no such thing as respect when it only is expected in one direction.

And the best responses they come out with are - you are being mean, I understand this because I did some training or a watched a TV programme parroting what activists said, you are not understanding your child, you are uneducated, you should go away and reflect on what youve just said as it's wrong, you should be ashamed.

And that's AFTER someone has shared their experiences of psychological harm, emotional blackmail, feelings of extreme guilt, questioning relentlessly if they are indeed the bad guy etc etc

None of it washes with me anymore. Im well past that ignorance, sanctimonious lecturing by people who are utterly detached from the reality and totally clueless.

I went away and thought about it. And I have been doing so FOR SEVENTEEN YEARS. That's longer than a lot of these trans identifying kids have been alive. This isn't new to me. I've heard it all. The attempts to shame and stigmatise no longer stick, because frankly if Id let them I'd have gone nuts.

And actually all it has done, has made me realise more that being an ally in this way, not having a clue, has harmed countless vulnerable young people. Far from being kind, it's acted to remove access to mental health support. It's removed parental support. It's created false expectations of life generally. It's set up people to reduce the dating pools and therefore many of the options for relationships you have in middle age and beyond. It has as yet unknown implications for physical health but, particularly for females high rates of complications and therefore a lesser quality of life in terms of physical health. And I haven't even touched on safeguarding implications.

And all this has been pushed with the snake oil and under the guise of being kind.

One of the things I detest most is this idea I hate my brother for being trans. No I don't. I hate the ideology and it's lies. I hate the fact it destroyed my family to uphold a fantasy that can't possibly exist. We haven't spoken in years and I don't expect that will ever change now. I don't want it too. But it doesn't mean I don't care. Of course I do. Sibling relationships are like that - they often make no sense and it's very possible to love but still dislike family members. You can still worrying about people you care about who you no longer wish to have in your life. And I about my parents. I worry about getting that phonecall saying he's no longer her, at far too early an age. But I know he's made his bed and he has to lie in it and I'll never change his mind. So what's the point. All trying to maintain a relationship would do would be to continue to hurt us both because of where we find ourselves because of this ideology.

The allies will NEVER understand this. They are detached from the emotion and reality. They are stuck with their mantras and black and white thinking.

if they fail to recognise the paradox and how denial of the truth doesn't change realities. They don't get the how failure to see the paradox of 'being kind' only where it suits their politics ensures harm.

Quoting fucking soap operas at me as a way to try and say 'well other people agree with me so I can't be wrong' as if this is about winning votes or public support rather than asking whether affirmation only is falling foul of the Law of Unintended Consequences and doing actual real life harms to minorities because they DON'T WANT TO SEE these inconvenient truths that counter their belief that they are being kind and good good people, really really says it all.

Why do they assume that I am a bad person and I want to be a bad person? Has it ever entered their heads that I wanted to do the best for someone I loved and that I want to do the best for as many people as possible because I AM KIND? It's just that I actually took a step back and asked questions about whether affirmation only was actually delivering on the promise that it would make things better and improve the world by being progressive and I found out that it's not. I found out that Being Kind sometimes means saying things people don't want to hear for their own wellbeing. I found out that Being Kind is only Kind of you consider the implications right across society.

Human rights are about balancing rights and not allowing supremacy. This is a male right supremacy movement which is regressive.

It's not kind.

Assumptions much?!

I’m going to make one small assumption of my own here- I assume I’m one of the ‘non involved’ trans allies who you perceive says ‘I understand this because I did some training or a watched a TV programme parroting what activists said’, and who has no ability to see homosexuality, autism, trauma and abuse etc etc.

And with respect, @RedToothBrush, that is absolute bullshit.

I don’t post about my family circumstances on here because they are relatively unusual and pretty identifying. But I can assure you I’ve got all the above bases (as well as a transgender family member) covered. As a result I’ve read around the subject extensively on both sides of the argument, having come from what I might call a gender sceptical position to start with.

I know whereof I speak. I’m not going to provide a CV or family details to GC posters on a, at times pretty transphobic and unpleasant, forum.

But as I’ve said a hundred times, please don’t assume that because people don’t agree with you, they are coming from a place of ignorance. It is the incredible arrogance of that assumption that bothers me most about this forum.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 19:42

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 19:40

Assumptions much?!

I’m going to make one small assumption of my own here- I assume I’m one of the ‘non involved’ trans allies who you perceive says ‘I understand this because I did some training or a watched a TV programme parroting what activists said’, and who has no ability to see homosexuality, autism, trauma and abuse etc etc.

And with respect, @RedToothBrush, that is absolute bullshit.

I don’t post about my family circumstances on here because they are relatively unusual and pretty identifying. But I can assure you I’ve got all the above bases (as well as a transgender family member) covered. As a result I’ve read around the subject extensively on both sides of the argument, having come from what I might call a gender sceptical position to start with.

I know whereof I speak. I’m not going to provide a CV or family details to GC posters on a, at times pretty transphobic and unpleasant, forum.

But as I’ve said a hundred times, please don’t assume that because people don’t agree with you, they are coming from a place of ignorance. It is the incredible arrogance of that assumption that bothers me most about this forum.

Edited

There is no respect in that post.

That's the problem.

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 19:43

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 19:42

There is no respect in that post.

That's the problem.

Thanks for your considered response.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 19:43

I'm not making any assumptions.

I've read enough of your dismissive posts.

I told you. I'm not prepared to be held hostage to fantasy and denial of reality.

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 19:46

You don’t think your post makes assumptions at all about the level of knowledge, personal involvement and experience, or consideration for other parties that those with a differing view point from you have @RedToothBrush ?

You might want to reread it.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 19:47

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 19:43

Thanks for your considered response.

Cos yours response was SO considered.

You seem to think I owe you something in terms of offering a 'considered response'.

Newsflash. I don't. Ive done my consideration. I've posted my considerations throughout this thread.

Perhaps youd actually like to engage with just one of my many points instead of just saying that you are somehow 'respectfully' telling me I'm talking bollocks when you are in the camp trying to uphold a lie and enforce it on the rest of us.

The answer is no.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 09/10/2024 19:49

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 19:40

Assumptions much?!

I’m going to make one small assumption of my own here- I assume I’m one of the ‘non involved’ trans allies who you perceive says ‘I understand this because I did some training or a watched a TV programme parroting what activists said’, and who has no ability to see homosexuality, autism, trauma and abuse etc etc.

And with respect, @RedToothBrush, that is absolute bullshit.

I don’t post about my family circumstances on here because they are relatively unusual and pretty identifying. But I can assure you I’ve got all the above bases (as well as a transgender family member) covered. As a result I’ve read around the subject extensively on both sides of the argument, having come from what I might call a gender sceptical position to start with.

I know whereof I speak. I’m not going to provide a CV or family details to GC posters on a, at times pretty transphobic and unpleasant, forum.

But as I’ve said a hundred times, please don’t assume that because people don’t agree with you, they are coming from a place of ignorance. It is the incredible arrogance of that assumption that bothers me most about this forum.

Edited

Goodness - what a thread to post your unpleasant views on. Parents & siblings sharing their innermost thoughts and anxieties about complex family dynamics with some exceptionally sensitive and insightful posts .....and then you arrive slating FWR as "pretty transphobic and unpleasant"

Surely there are other threads where you could share your prejudiced views about women & FWR?

spannasaurus · 09/10/2024 19:49

@RedToothBrush Thank you for all your posts on this thread

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 19:53

As I say.

The tone deafness is instructive. Every. Single. Time

I mean. Talk about proving the point.

ElleWoods15 · 09/10/2024 19:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RedToothBrush · 09/10/2024 20:07

I was engaging with your very extensive dismissal of all those who disagree with you.

You can't change sex no matter whether you or I argue.

There's your bottom line. It won't change.

You still are ignoring harms that stem from pretending you can.

Why is that?

Tilts head.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 09/10/2024 20:15

There has been a lot of sensible discussion on this thread, not least from RedToothBrush and SophiaCohle. There have also been a spattering of unpleasant and simplistic posts. I think we all recognise that feelings run high in this area. I know that I am angry as well as sad - but like some others, I am far more angry with the manipulative and authoritarian ideology that has ensnared my son (and others) than angry with my son.

It is possible to be angry with someone you love. When my DW is angry with me, it is up to me to try to understand why, and for us to deal with the problem. Usually that means admitting that I was wrong, and sometimes it means arguing until we reach agreement. But sadly it is nigh on impossible to argue with a trans identified person, in my experience. The ones I know are too fragile to cope with disagreement, and too indoctrinated to consider that they might have a muddled worldview.