How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

[Autumnleavesareslippery]

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

Parents also have a duty to other children and to be mindful of how one can affect the others and may make unreasonable demands of them.

This seems to be neglected in the rush to affirm without question and that's where a lot of families are quite frankly, totally abandoned.

We have it in law especially that we have a right NOT to believe in gender over sex. Why does this fail to apply to children? Why are we saying that children must not only indulge this but also rewrite their entire own identity and sense of self to affirm their sibling.

If you can't understand sibling rivalry dynamics and how a shift in dynamics might affect relationships you are pretty damn blinkered and naive.

Parents who demand that their children defer to one child are the ones who should be ashamed for not understanding and promoting tolerance of divergent ideas.

We used divergent ideas as part of a healthy society. Now that's been torn up by a bunch of people who claim to be liberals. Demanding adherence to a belief is as illiberal as you can get.

In a way... this sounds bad but I feel relieved that your other kids are reacting the way they are.

A year or two ago, not long after DC had told me about being trans, I joined an online support group for parents of young people in their late teens/early twenties who like mine were taking cross-sex hormones. They were mostly American, seemed ordinary, working people or professionals, most of them more or less GC. And every one of them had multiple young-adult children who were all taking cross-sex hormones. That did come as a shock. And a worry as well because what happens over there tends to come over here.

Up til then I'd only personally know a couple of families, each with one "trans" child. But a few months later I met up with an old colleague and both her teen kids were now "trans".

I find it very difficult to see this as an expression of anything innate or otherwise "authentic". For me it's more like a zeitgeist. One that may be starting to shift in the other direction but only in patches so far and our slightly socially out-of-it kids wont notice that yet.

We were scared to challenge because our kid was is extreme distress and we worried for her safety so other people's feelings were secondary at that point. BUT it doesn't sound like that's what's happening in your family so I totally agree why should you all feel uncomfortable?

I guess there's also an element of your parental desire to tell your kid if they are doing something ludicrous because for their own sake you want to protect them!

The total self-absorption and the obsession with one's own inner-identity is also pretty tedious. In truth if he's looking ridiculous you are doing him a favour by asking some questions.

There are forums where trans people discuss how to dress, how to walk, how to change mannerisms etc etc.

Yet I think the subject remains off limits to family members because of this common trait of over-defensiveness and being primed to expect rejection.

This is why I say, it's easy to find yourself trying to be helpful and supportive but finding yourself being screamed at for somehow getting it wrong and not behaving in the expected fashion.

This why I say I think it's really relevant to talk about autism and more rigid expectations in this context.

The whole process of validating and affirming is often about being expected to over look the glaringly obvious and to be compliant with expectations - the whole walking on eggshells thing. It's really not healthy in anyway. It's about power and control. Just like anorexia is very often not about weight at all.

Families being silenced and stigmatised often because we are so fearful that something bad will happen to our family member, if we are honest, has meant that the whole understanding of what someone being trans is like is distorted. We have this notion of them being helpless victims who have been rejected by their families as a standard trope despite the fact that only a few years ago trans groups themselves were openly saying that it's not unusual for the opposite with trans people rejecting their families because they are a reminder of the past. We have this notion of trans people being bullied by family members yet when you actually talk to family members many will feel intimidated and bullying into submission over pronouns and names with genuine mistakes being viewed as major transgressions worthy of punishment.

The reality of it up close and in families encompasses a much wider range of experiences - including many which don't paint trans people in a particularly healthy light. Often precisely because there are massive mental health issues going off simultaneously which we are supposed to just gloss over and ignore.

Family members bottling up their own feelings doesn't work well either. It creates a pressure cooker effect which is combined with walking on eggshells. That doesn't lead to a scenario where everyone is content. It leads to one where a confrontation is highly likely, emotions are running high and everyone ends up saying or doing things which don't help anyone. You have to be able to talk about the difficult and inconvenient stuff as well as the nice stuff in ANY healthy relationship.

Parents are there to foster mutual respect and that respect is a two way process. They should encourage talking about good things and bad things and making a point that avoidant type behaviour is unhealthy. They should encourage independence of thought and creation of personal boundaries. They should also remind children that reality is a bitch and you can't live in a fantasy land and in the protective bubble of your safe space at that age because the big wide world isn't always nice, or fair nor can you live a fantasy life.

I find it depressing it's taken this long before pushback on the evil bigotted family narrative has been possible (the trans widows have made that much more possible).

Mumsnet at its finest, yes. Women offering intelligent empathetic, articulate advice based on their own experience and the outcomes.

Yes, this thread is a credit to Mumsnet. The support here for women navigating immensely difficult situations is invaluable.

Bayswater is a support group for parents. It is made up of parents trying to work out how to negotiate very difficult and distressing situations. Parents who care about their kids and are struggling with the implications of trans ideology.

Gendered Intelligence are entirely trans focussed. For them, the trans person is always right, and everyone else must change to accommodate them. The parents must centre their trans child and affirm him or her; no-one else really matters. If anyone is unable or unwilling to do this, they are transphobic and need to be shunned if they don't repent.

Yes in spite of the absurd censorship - we keep supporting each other. Thinking about you OP. You are in a tough situation. Be very careful not to estrange your other children in a bid to support your son. Unfortunately there probably won't be enough affirmation in the world for him regardless of what you do.

Sometimes people dress in a way to make them unapproachable, undesirable to the mainstream. Think extreme goth…
The person then has a “reason” for not fitting in, being a loner, whatever. Person now also part of a “community”, and can feel hated, discriminated against etc.
Why don’t people like me? Why don’t girls like me? Why don’t boys like me?

Because I’m like this … This is my true self.

Just a thought.

I find it very difficult to see this as an expression of anything innate or otherwise "authentic". For me it's more like a zeitgeist. One that may be starting to shift in the other direction but only in patches so far and our slightly socially out-of-it kids wont notice that yet.

Yes, I think that's definitely a factor in how slow the tanker will take to turn. The "cool kids" at school might be taking the piss out of pronouns etc but not the more socially isolated ones.

Yes and not helped by all the lonely ones affirming each other online with their anime avatars.

If it were me I’d stop worrying about what others think. They are still your DC. Support them, take them shopping and help them find their style. Talk to them about being in women only spaces and encourage them to use gender neutral toilets. Take yourself out of it, don’t mention you don’t like the name. How much do you want a relationship with your child vs how much do you want to be right?

The failure to distinguish between the fantasy of the online world and the immutable issues of the real world is part of the problem.

We've not done anyone any favours by pretending differently.

Yes and not helped by all the lonely ones affirming each other online with their anime avatars.

YY.

And another one with the emotional blackmail.

My brother went nuts at the suggestion of going shopping fwiw. (See previous point about taking it as a slight and being deeply insecure).

This is nothing more than an ideological response, gendered intelligence are not an organisation that any parent who cares about their child should not be touching with a barge pole.

Your son needs to gain an understanding as to why he feels the way he does, it is OK to tell him he is not female and that he is male. He needs exploratory therapy, more than likely he is just gay and his autism is playing a part in this decision. This is an excellent book which should prove a good resource to you. When Kids Say They're Trans: A Guide for Thoughtful Parents eBook : O'Malley, Stella, Ayad, Sasha, Marchiano, Lisa: Amazon.co.uk: Kindle Store

Lots of people in this situation are very fragile, insecure, self-obsessed, controlling and desperate for validation (whatever that means). It's because this is a mental health condition. If only we could all accept and agree that we could actually make progress and have sensible conversations.

What Gatherley said. It does no one any favours to pretend otherwise.

Thank god for Cass. Which literally says this and is also helping to open up the necessary conversations.

I think what I find striking about all this is that it's all women being expected to validate, flatter, help, put their feelings to one side. Sisters are expected to be ok with it even to the point that their brother copies their name, the mum is supposed to enable the male child to woman better (which of course he can't). It's never clearer that women are support animals.

No. It's a parent's job to parent. Very often that means saying no, guiding children away from the wrong path.

When 4 out of 10 of the kids in my house are "trans" when my son's friends are round, it's abundantly clear to me that this is a social contagion. Not something innate.

The Cass Review is like finally some grown ups have stepped in, which of course is why there are all the howling tantrums from trans rights activists.

Had to re read my post there to spot the emotional blackmail? Still can’t see it.

Ah well.

@RedToothBrush thank you for your post at 8.35 yesterday. I really appreciate the sharing. It makes me feel a little more confident that making sure my younger son’s needs were prioritised was the right move for us as a family.

At the time we did sense that DD felt that DS was the ‘favourite’ and that there was sibling rivalry involved and, on a subconscious level, a desire to dislodge her brother. There were eventually quite a few family rows where we pointed out that his needs had always been secondary to hers (sitting in the car for 90-120mins both ends of the day to drive her to the single sex private school she wanted, rather thenca the coed one 4miles away; the inability for him to attend any after school clubs/have play dates for the same reason). One day I just snapped and said that anyone looking in from the outside would assume she was the favourite as the entire effing household revolved around her for nearly a decade. Privately we always reassured him, privately we told him how much we loved him and that her needs didn’t trump his, that he was allowed to feel angry, that if he felt anxious/sad he must some to us. But we nonetheless missed his autism until he was 15, missed his heightened levels of anxiety for years before seeking treatment, and didn’t step in soon enough to avoid a minor disaster with his GCSEs because everyone was telling us DD had decided to end her life before her 18th birthday so we remained on suicide watch 24/7 for years.

We now actively and explicitly rank his needs equal to hers - she knows that whatever she needs and asks for will only be provided if it does not conflict with his needs, or our own. I could kick myself for not doing this sooner. Ironically, DS is happier, has experienced much less anxiety/fewer acute migraines over the last year… and DD has come to understand that she operates within a family where all 4 parties’ needs have to be weighted. Her desisting began around the time this came to a head. My DD is a good, loving (vulnerable and impressionable) kid, but her dad had a lifelong debilitating diagnosis coupled with cancerous polyps, my MH was so acutely eroding that we discussed my moving out, and my DS just soldiered on not wanting to make waves.

Somewhere along the line she realised she had effectively been terrorising us and that despite this we had stuck by her. She finally realised that though we set no store by the trans stuff we nonetheless unconditionally loved her - AND her brother. There’s been sea change in her behaviour, MH, physical health, and she is now forward looking to uni and her dream career albeit understanding that she might want/need to live at home during her degree and for a while afterwards until she feels well enough to go solo.

I’ve lain awake at night feeling like shit for not meeting my son’s needs quickly enough but he is, without doubt, the most kind, caring and loving boy. Experiencing all this seems to have made him more compassionate and selfless than many boys his own age, though I worry he will struggle to set his boundaries in relationships when he is older and feel strong enough to communicate and advocate for his own needs. We’re working on that, though.

Had to re read my post there to spot the emotional blackmail? Still can’t see it.

Ah well.

Here

How much do you want a relationship with your child vs how much do you want to be right?

@andfinallyhereweare

How much do you want a relationship with your child vs how much do you want to be right?

HTH