How do you support other siblings when a teen decides they are trans

[Autumnleavesareslippery]

I've name changed for this, have been a member for 19 years since pregnant with DS. I'm going to try and be factual as I'm in shock and dealing with a whole host of mine and my children's emotions. Yes I'm using 'he' here as none of us have got our heads around this. I'm trying to be very honest in how I feel and really need some support from people who have more of an idea about how to handle this than me.

DS (19) came home from uni on Friday. On Friday night at about 11 pm in the family chat he declared he was transgender. He informed us what he was called. It was an unusual name choice for a 19 year old - that of someone perhaps born 150 years ago. Think Enid. He told us he'd known for years.

All of us were in shock. I have DD (17) and DD and DS (both 14). I sent a message privately to him thanking for letting us know as I wasn't quite sure what else to say. He didn't read it and remained in his room. Didn't even bother with the usual teen response of a thumbs up.

Saturday and Sunday he acted completely normally, like nothing major had happened and he had told us he was vegetarian now or something. He seemed calm and relaxed. He looked exactly the same - a 6ft 2 broad shouldered man.

He then came downstairs to get a lift to the train station dressed as what I can only describe as a stereotype of what someone might think a woman looked like. Badly done make up. An odd dress that didn't fit. And started talking in a completely different soft 'feminine' voice and doing strange things with his hands that he must have deemed 'female'. He had lace like gloves on. It looked so outdated and strange.

The best way to describe it was he looked like Dame Edna or the character out of little Britain from 20 years ago in that the clothing was odd and it seemed almost designed to get a reaction. But he appeared to be deadly serious and nonchalant about it. A woman would have been clearly mocked if she dressed like it. It just leaves me wondering whether this is what he views women as?! Not that he knows any women who would act like this - he's surrounded by many women who express themselves in multiple ways but not in an Edwardian lady about to collapse way.

I drove him to the station trying to make small talk about the weather and his course and came back to everyone sat staring in disbelief. He's never said anything, acted in any way 'feminine' (whatever that means). He's at a RG uni, studying a science subject with 3 As at A level, and has organised himself a part time job. I only say this because life seems to be going well for him, rather than a potential response to something.

He is however autistic.

DD 17 is furious and says he's making a mockery of women and that woman is not a costume. She says he better not be going in female only spaces.

DD 15 looks stunned and keeps asking why he thinks he can just become a woman and what he thinks that means. She can't identify out of periods etc etc. DS 15 is laughing in disbelief. DH just looks completely confused and keeps muttering about getting loads of tattoos when he wanted to shock his parents thirty five years ago.

I genuinely don't know what to do next. Please bear in mind I'm in shock, had only just 'got over' my first born leaving for uni and all the emotions that brings.

I want to support DS19 with whatever gender expression he wants. When he still looked like him (and didn't appear to be 'dressed as' a mockery of women) I was shocked but we just thought ok, this is him experimenting with finding himself or whatever. But now I'm really worried about him and his future and whether others will look at him and think wtf. I'm also angry at the very (sorry to stereotype) 'teen boy' way he told us - late at night, no response, informing us what he was called rather than perhaps asking 'could you call me'. No consideration of the impact but I guess that might just be being 19.

I agree with what both of my daughters are saying. How do I say this because it then directly criticises DS? Do I accept he is an adult, has made his choices and my care and focus should be on them? I can't gaslight them and tell them they're wrong.

I'm now worried he's going to go into female spaces, as a clearly visible six foot plus male. This would make me angry.

He is at a university where I know lots of his lecturers (I am an academic in the same field). I know many are gender critical. Do I mention it to them first or let it be the elephant in the room?

I don't know what to say to my 85 year old mother. I think she will be very shocked and worried. I'm trying to work out if we have to tell her (she doesn't live nearby).

I don't know how much to talk to him or challenge this. I feel a kind of grief. I'm worried he's going to take hormones or do something irreversible.

We all dislike the name / think it's a very odd choice - which makes me feel very alienated from him.

And at the end of the day he's my 'baby' - I want him to be happy. I don't want people to criticise him. I want to support him but how do you do that when you question so much what he is doing? It wasn't the fact he declared himself to have a different gender but rather what followed - the declaration of name, strange clothing and fear of him going in women's spaces.

I also do absolutely realise he is an adult and can make his own choices and face the consequences. He has his own life (albeit he's being financially supported by us).

I guess it was just so sudden.

Any advice on what to do next would be gladly received.

'The road to hell is paved with good intentions'

Is a phrase that's kept me sane. Its reflective of well meaning without thought and reflection on practical application and real life consequences.

Those of you who are recognising the grief of the family, thank you. He seems so uncaring about it. He doesn't care about anything we feel. I feel he's mocking me and other women by dressing that way.

I really feel for you. Everyone around my friend that transitioned really struggled with the grief and loss. Everyone was in counselling but he was angry at our pain. All that mattered was his feelings. It was hugely selfish.

The reason why women need protection from men, including men who think they are women, is not because of gametes or chromosomes but because we live in a society where women need protection from men.

Another great post, so much food for thought. Thank you for mining your experiences for the benefit of others. I'm mindful that this is OP's thread and don't want to hijack but I'm finding it so helpful too.

The reason why women need protection from men, including men who think they are women, is not because of gametes or chromosomes but because we live in a society where women need protection from men.

Someone male who feels their sex is female and accesses female spaces is still a man. And is as much risk as any other man. Feelings don't change your sex and it's sex that is the greatest indicator of being a risk to females.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Sophie-Tamas/publication/284003525Autismmandtheeghostoffgender/links/64e490840453074fbda5b190/Autism-and-the-ghost-of-gender.pdf?origin=publicationdetail&&tp=eyJjb250ZXh0Ijp7ImZpcnN0UGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uRG93bmxvYWQiLCJwcmV2aW91c1BhZ2UiOiJwdWJsaWNhdGlvbiJ9fQ

I've seen it said ( sorry, I don't have a link to it) that young Autistic people make up a substantial part of the transgender community. I wonder if your DS feels he doesn't fit in and sees becoming trans as a way to feel he belongs. I understand your distress and hope you can find a way to discuss the matter calmly with your DS, hopefully it will give you some idea how to approach this for the best

Yes, I think that is exactly what I said in the bit you quoted.

There are really interesting posts about the binary or not nature of sex on this thread. But that is not the purpose of what this thread is for and traditionally on threads where people ask for support/advice we try and stick to the OP’s subject.

Perhaps you could start your own thread @TriesNotToBeCynical so we can discuss what the OP has started the thread for?

OP @Autumnleavesareslippery what is your children’s relationships like with each other? Would it be part of their relationship to speak their minds to each other? I also wonder how unusual/out of character or not it is for your DS to communicate by messages and not reply or acknowledge it. What is his communication with you all like usually? You mentioned I think that historically he has been empathetic (for want of a better word)? Again, of the ND and specifically ASD ppl I know messaging in a very matter of fact way, neglecting to actually talk directly or follow up on messaging is not unusual but it may be for your ds.

Yes, I think that is exactly what I said in the bit you quoted.

It's not. But I wouldn't expect you to get that.

This makes so much sense, and what my tangled thoughts were trying to think this morning when I wrote this. It’s all about him without a thought to others because he can and people will accept it - ironically a more stereotypically male behaviour.

I’m also questioning myself as to what I’d say if my daughters dressed like he did last night - no doubt I’d say err that’s an interesting choice what on earth are you wearing? Yet I’m scared to say it to him…

Exactly.

You are already altering your pattern of behaviour towards him, because you are too afraid to say something you would say to him as your son or to your daughters.

Thats really unhealthy. It means your boundaries about what is acceptable and non-acceptable behaviour are not necessarily where they should be. Keep an eye on this. If you don't you potentially expose your other children to a situation where they have to put up with behaviour that you would otherwise would have challenged him on previously. No free passes. If your other kids see a free pass, they will struggle with things more cos of this issue over 'fairness' and a sense of misjustice.

I have made a point of saying, if I am to be non discrimatory then I hold trans people to the same standards as everyone else and to the standards that I would have expected of them previously. Otherwise its not fair on others. Cos equality and all that. And actually its not necessarily in your son's interests either. Its not about identity - its about behaviour. Stay focused on that. You job as a parent is to be aware of this difference.

As a parent your job isn't to validate. It is support and to challenge behaviour when appropriate. You are not there to be the nice guy. You are there to guide and at times say the difficult things that no one else will say, because they need to hear the truth from someone. Otherwise you are just indulging a child and not actually helping them in the long run. You can harm someone by just being a 'Yes Man'.

You son hasn't actually asked you for help and support at this stage from what you've suggested. He has merely informed you of a decision in his life and effectively told you and your family to deal with that information. Thats why it seems rather emotionless at this point. He's not emotionally asking for support. He's telling you his decision and I think there's a certain expectation there that you will respond to it a certain way.

Remember he's had some time to come to this position. You've been hit with the gender grenade and are almost expected to instantly process this which is an impossible task. I do think it puts families on the back foot and in a position where they are more likely to put their foot in it because they have no idea how to respond or what the expectations of the trans person are. Again power dynamics - the trans person is effectively in a position of control over timings and how they announce this. They are also framed in the narrative as the ones who should be catered to rather than this being something that others have to also come to terms with on their own grounds. The trans person has also had months to build up an idea in their head about how their family SHOULD respond. If there is a mismatch this can become a particular problem. I note that there is a significance here if the trans person concerned is autistic. Theres a fair chance they may build up a more rigid and set of idea of how their family should response which is fantastical in its own right because no one is ever going to perform to the script in their heads.

So when the whole scenario plays out eventually, and theres a mismatch they are more likely to struggle to cope with responses that don't fit with their expectations due to a reduced ability to be flexible in thinking. This whole thing of having a bunch of people around them winding them up to this point as a significant 'moment' doesn't help either. The analagy that springs to mind on this this is, a bit like planning for, building up to and expecting the perfect wedding and then a tiny thing isn't quite right and its all a big disaster cos Bridezilla had an image in her head of what it SHOULD have been like. And no matter how well the rest of it goes, thats the thing that sticks in Bridezillas head and she focuses on and can't get over. And no wedding EVER goes to plan and there's always something that has hiccups on the day.

He's not at that 'wedding day moment' when he comes home yet. You've got that to come. That's what you need to prepare for and what you have to think about in terms of reactions. You need support your other children who are dealing with the grenade right now in the immediate moment. Your problem is you have no idea whether he's going to be militiant or more relaxed about it ahead of time, so that makes it particuarly hard. I certainly felt that 'wedding day moment' was almost confrontational and almost provokative which didn't help matters. It just inflamed things. It felt like talking to a complete stranger even though it was someone you thought you knew well. I'd be looking up de-esculation strategies if I'm frank about this and considering how I perhaps prime him and temper expectations softly...

(Hope this makes sense to you and to others).

If my son or daughter went out dressed the he was dressed I’d tell them they looked ridiculous and should change.
I imagine it’s different for you op when you feel shocked by the change in behaviour.
I couldn’t ignore it though and I’d let my daughters have and express their own opinion.

If I flip a coin 10,000 times, it might eventually land on its edge, but that doesn't mean that heads is tails.

Was a great thread this has been. Mn at its best. Helpful, supportive, informative, good suggestions to make you think.

Thank you @RedToothBrush really useful. Lots to think about.
And a big wave to all the other siblings who've had a trans sibling lob a grenade into the family and for the OP for shining a light on us.

Hey OP, I’m another parent of a trans identifying child and have posted a few times in the LGBT children section

our situation with siblings is somewhat different (our situation in general has for the most part been quite different to others’ posted experiences) as our DD (now 12) has not only been accepting and affirmative but has had her own trauma to deal with when we initially said DS (now 15) had to advocate for himself if he wanted others to call him a different name and pronoun and she has been quite distressed over knowing what the right thing to do is in front of which people. She wants her brother to be happy and feel safe and she uses his female (also very old fashioned and honestly a rubbish girls name - also not that dissimilar to hers though I think in this context not consciously so as it’s the name of a character in one of his favourite books) name and uses female pronouns. I’ve even heard her refer to him as her sister.

I’ve tried to gently guide her to think a bit more critically and when she’s had friends at school say they’re trans I’ve said to her to make sure they know she doesn’t care how they identify and if it changes all that matters is that they are friends to show that we all need to be open and accepting that most often people desist from transitioning. But honestly I struggle with her immediate acceptance, it’s like been gaslit but both kids!!

FWIW I’ve read the whole thread and am finding the discussions very interesting. But for those of the “just tell him he looks stupid” brigades it’s not as easy as that. There is real fear of your child pulling away from you and estranging themselves and our son also went through a horrible mental health episode earlier this year (18months after first “realising” he was trans). He’s also incredibly sensitive and not the type for showing off or making demands so I’ve very much gone into cotton wool protective mode with him. He doesn’t talk about his feelings willingly or well at all and he needs to know our home is where he is safe and can be happy because frankly there are nefarious people out there (particularly TRAs) who I believe would do him harm so we’re going down the route of validation rather than affirmation to keep all
communication open as much as we can

Just sending solidarity. Your son has lobbed a grenade into your family, let it explode and waltzed off to uni leaving you all to deal with the fallout, hasn’t he?

Your family sounds lovely and I would continue to support your DCs at home with the knowledge that you are all on the same page as this. I had/have one child who trans identified from 12, for 6 years ish, who seems to be desisting. Her younger brother was repectful and kind but he and 70-80% of his peers throughout school (ie, the ones NOT in the LGBTQ+ groups as gay or allies) all see this as eye rolling attention seeking. They are perfectly kind to such people (before anyone comes on and talks about this being bullying and transphobic and leading to suicidal ideation etc). Most of the 20% in my DDs peer group/year, btw, now 19 have largely dropped this cause and are either comfortably LBG and/or have moved onto other causes.

There is no need to reeducate wither yourselves or your children by seeking the ‘support’ of pro trans support agencies. Genspect, Bayswater and the organisation to support of siblings of those with gender dysphoria are good places to draw resources (though this doesn’t sound like GD to me as that presents much much earlier). Your DCs do not need to be made to feel guilty over their totally acceptable disbelief in gender ideology. Their right to think and feel as they do is protected in law. Moreover there is no ethical or moral compunction to reframe their feelings to accommodate your son.

This does not mean that honesty and compassion isn’t needed however. I would sit down with DS and talk to him - say the message came out of the blue, that there is nothing in his history to have lead any of you to have considered he was struggling with the sense of who he is and what sex he is. You can also reasonably say, honestly, that the way he choses to present is alarming and caused you/your girls distress but that you’d like to understand what he is choosing to present his idea of his female self in this way. You can enquire as to whether he is having friendship issues at uni, whether he is stressed and anxious, and would counselling help him understand what he is feeling. He may already have self referred so it would be useful to understand where he sits on this at the moment.

You are also within your rights to ask him to tone it down when he is in your home and around your children - your daughters. Whatever he is feeling does not trump the feelings of every other member of your family and it is also okay to communicate that to him too. For example my DD wanted family photos removes because it caused her distress - I refused as she doesn’t/didn’t get to rewrite my personal/our family history and memories.

Whether this is an issue over formerly unrealised homosexuality (ASC kids are emotionally/sexually 3-5 years behind their NT peers), sign of AGP, or an indication of downward spiralling mental health is something that needs to be explored with a professional. My advice would be to encourage him to get neutral clinical support to explore what he feeling/thinking. As an 18yo you have little say in what happens at uni and in the GP consulting room, but you do have rights when you are home and can reaffirm that he is loved, that his home/family will always be there for him - but that there are ground rules and a requirement for mutual respect that takes on board his younger siblings wellbeing as well as his.

@AreTheyOrArentThey that's rather sad for your 12 yo, do you feel she wants to be so affirmative or there's no other option.
How similar to her name has been chosen?

Whatever.

As I said previously, comments like this, are clueless and harmful.

Your role as a parent isn't to be kind and indulgent. It's to raise your child well and to also be mindful of others - including those they disagree with.

I have to just let both children’s feelings be prioritised to be honest and she doesn’t feel sad, she feels conflicted because she wants her brother to just be ok no matter how he identifies. I don’t think she is affirming because she doesn’t feel like there’s a choice. We have a lot of very close LGB friends and those of different colours and religions to us and my DC also have friends who span the ND spectrum thanks to the inclusive schools they’ve attended, so we have always towed the “humans come in all shapes and sizes and it’s not up to us to judge them (within reason!) just because they’re different to us” line, and this has resulted in a child who is very open to people being who they are and allowing them to be who they want to be. It’s more of a challenge for me because I am obviously terrified of what the future holds for my trans identifying son while at the same time glad my daughter doesn’t judge anyone for being a different colour, religion, sex, nuero-diverse or gender identifying person to her.

it’s a delicate balance to celebrate her inclusivity and non-judgemental nature and at the same time educating her about HER rights and HER safe space.

we've been in the watchful waiting phase for over 2 years and our D.C. have very normal sibling relationships, they get on but they don’t talk about in depth stuff at all so at the moment we’re not rocking any boats.

Sorry forgot to answer your other question @DoreenonTill8 it has the same first and last letter

As for the actual matter of this thread I don't know where to start, this is so full of casual misinformation, strawman arguments,

You must've missed the bit where a large proportion of women posting on this thread are parents of trans children, or siblings and have direct experience. Or lived experience, if you like.

Mumsnet at its finest, yes. Women offering intelligent empathetic, articulate advice based on their own experience and the outcomes.