Feel sad that more people in the media don’t speak up

[FizzyCow]

I know this kind of thing has been posted before but I just need to vent about it.

I just feel so sad when I think about writers and broadcasters who I always respected and I felt challenged the norm and made me think differently about things. In reality they are all just privileged, wealthy people who only look like they are rocking the boat but in reality they just care about virtual signalling to their friends.

Caitlin Moran is a big one for me. I always loved her writing, I know the area she grew up in and saw her as different to the usual champagne socialist types. Now I just see her as over privileged and so out of touch. She wouldn’t understand how today’s accepted transgender views could negatively affect poor women today.

The same for Adam Buxton. I loved that he had a variety of people on his podcast and covered a variety of topics. Now I just think about what he doesn’t talk about and why. I recognise I am being totally naive to think that he would care.

Similar for Jane Garvey, loved her so much but she is depressingly silent on the issue.

I know none of these people have to say anything but it’s depressing that they don’t.

On the one hand, yes, I wish more would speak up. On the other, since the acknowledgement of biological reality has turned into a dealbreaker for me, there are some I hope don't open their mouths and say something that causes me to open the trapdoor for them.

I wish people would speak up. But I've lost respect for so many people I used to really like over the years. Off the top of my head, Margaret Atwood, Eddie Izzard, Billy Bragg (I am SO angry about him), David Tennant. So many others.
So there's a part of me that can't bear to hear views on case I have to lose another of my favourites!

Yes agree with those @soupycustard especially Margaret Atwood:

My problem is also when people don’t say anything I also then don’t care about anything they have to say. They all seem so shallow to me now.

The Handmaid’s Tale is unbearably sad for me now. That the writer of such a brave piece of feminist literature should capitulate to male demands in this way is a tragic irony.

Under his eye, indeed. It makes me feel like patriarchy gets us all, in the end.

Yes @FizzyCow the shallowness of it all. And frankly, the complete raging stupidity.
And @LunaNorth it is baffling how anyone could write something so brilliant and so apt and not see the parallels? Absolutely extraordinary. On the other hand (and this is not at all meant to be ageist), she is in her 80s; this is not excusing her at all, but she grew up in a time when many women would have internalised misogyny.
Still, it's rather as if Orwell had turned round and said, 'do you know, totalitarianism is definitely the way forward'.

Well said.

I felt similarly about Ben Elton after reading his brilliantly prophetic and brilliantly written "Blind Faith" (it's 1984 with more: most people are working from home and only go in to the office for team days where the focus is on celebration - generally of banal conformity, it's illegal to use or know about science etc etc)..... and then he opened that infamous live show on Channel 4 (where Jordan Gray threw off the dress and demonstrated how to play the piano with a penis) by sharing his preferred pronouns.

It was an ironic celebration of his conformity to the blind faith of gender identity belief. Especially so if it turns out he doesn't really believe that everyone has a gender identity and he was just saying what he felt he was meant to say.

Apparently he's doing a new show about political correctness gone mad. I hope someone has opened his eyes a bit wider and he can actually see it now.

He's still one of my favourite stand-ups, TV writers (Blackadder, Upstart Crow and more) and authors. If he genuinely believes that everyone has a gender identity, fine. The bit that upsets me is that he signals that support by pushing this belief on to the non-believers - by openly declaring his belief. It's not necessary.

If he felt he had to say it, this would have been better: "Good evening everyone, my name's Ben Elton and my pronouns are he/him. I also support others' rights not to believe in gender identity. So let's keep women's sports and spaces for the women while finding ways to help transwomen be accepted in the mens".

Thanks @BonfireLady lets hope he has the guts to say what we’re all thinking!

I hate the way comedians like to think they are so edgy but they would never have the guts to criticise trans ideology (except Dave Chapelle). They care so much that people like them. I used to love Stuart Lee but his faux edginess just makes me cringe now.

Ah Stuart Lee was another one. So sad.
On the other hand, I always hated Ricky Gervais but his dinosaurs sketch was absolutely bloody brilliant!

I've had a similar kind of relationship with Joan Smith. Many years ago I came across her book 'Different for Girls' and was impressed. Her account of some of the assumptions made about women and the frank misogyny in the Yorkshire Ripper investigation was excellent. Then she blotted her copybook with me in the horse meat scandal of 2013 where she appeared to be horrified that poor people weren't paying enough for their food. A packet of supermarket burgers for under a pound? Dreadful! It all seemed to me to be very privileged and out of touch. I've been on a low income a number of times and affordable food is something of a lifeline. We can't all afford the artisan gourmet options. However, recently she's rehabilitating herself as she has been placing herself in the gender critical camp with her complaints about toilets and related issues. So maybe she's alright after all!

Watch out, someone will be along in a minute to say 'I thought you lot didn't like no debate, why can't you just let celebs have their own views'

🙄🤬

I was so desperately disappointed in Stewart Lee. Last time I went to see him he waded into the JKR row (in a cynical, woke signalling, not really saying what he thought but definitely criticising her kind of way. Really weaselly).

I cried on the way home. My husband was utterly pissed off too.

Yes @AstonScrapingsNameChange weaselly is the right word. I just hate the way they like to think their views are so shocking when they just parroting the accepted elite view point.

I can totally get that criticism about allowing people their views. I don’t know what it is that annoys me so much. I think it’s when people are meant to be “outspoken” but actually they say so little. They want the kudos of standing up for what’s right but have such little genuine curiosity.

Watch out, someone will be along in a minute to say 'I thought you lot didn't like no debate, why can't you just let celebs have their own views'

Indeed. In a way that's remarkably similar to how this transwoman is behaving (I've linked to my comment as it's directly related to this point, but the whole thread is worth a read).

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5167595-canadian-struggle-session?reply=138370875&utm_campaign=reply&utm_medium=share

If the starting point of the debate is that one party has to uphold the other party's belief as true before anyone "debates", it's not a debate.

@AlexaAdventuress yes it’s amazing how quickly people get out of touch with how people actually live once they have some money. I can’t tolerate any moaning from people who have clearly forgotten what’s it’s like to live on very little. All the USP panic drives me crazy, it’s far from what so many people have the luxury to worry about.

I always quite liked Mark Steel. I've had my differences with him over the years, but Mark is a decent guy with pretty good instincts.

But I was really fucked off with him gushing over the womanliness of Eddie Izzard. Come off it, Mark. You don't believe that any more than I do. You just believe that, given your social circles and political commitments, it's something you should say.

Hopefully Mark's appreciation of Eddie's womanliness extends to Mark declaring that he would absolutely consider Eddie as a future partner if he and his wife ever split up. Obviously it would depend on that "spark" being there and it's all very personal as to whether you feel that attraction or not (it would be utterly exhausting for all parties if every heterosexual man felt that romantic connection buzz with every heterosexual woman**) but I would want Mark to be clear that he sees Eddie's womanliness as exactly the same as "any other woman's" in this respect.

**To be clear, I'm talking about meaningful romantic attraction. Not just the lustful desire to shag. Collectively, girls and women are already exhausted by the collective dialled up libido of the male collective.

I'll say the same about Margaret Atwood. I'll admit to not being a huge fan of her writing. IMO there have been two really prophetic novels in my lifetime*, and neither has been The Handmaid's Tale.

But Margaret Atwood does not believe TWAW. It is literally impossible for her to believe that. Her whole brand of feminism is based around female bodies and their reproductive capacity. I think she saw TWAW as something that nice liberal Canadians should say, but she thought it was a harmless white lie that nobody really believed. She got a hell of a shock on that score.

(*) If you're interested, my picks for prophetic novels are Children of Men by PD James, and in a completely different vein Fight Club by Chuck Palahniuk. If I want to read a feminist dystopia my standby is Ira Levin's The Stepford Wives, which has a nice streak of dark humour and is much better than either movie adaptation.

(edited for duplicate post)

Thanks @StainlessSteelMouse for the recommendations. I have seen the movies but not read the books.

Thank you for the recommendations @StainlessSteelMouse from me too. I love a prophetic novel. I still love the Handmaid's Tale and I still think that Blind Faith is utterly brilliant. Jaw-droppingly so in today's post-covid "culture wars".

I still love Ben Elton's humour over all. The only previous time I was disappointed in him was when I finally saw him live and everything in his show was material that he'd already done on TV. Yes the hot metal teapot handle and it's terribly fitting lid (standard issue in 80s cafes) that burns the person using it is great observational comedy but I can't keep politely laughing when I had heard it soooooo many times before in your various TV shows 🤦‍♀️ But I forgave you because I love your other stuff.

Come on Ben, wake up. Please give Mark a nudge and wake him up too.

Then go and have a chat with Margaret and work out how to break yourselves free from the ridiculous situation that you wrote about in your own respective novels. To borrow a favourite word of yours, Ben, you are both being numpties.

The thing is that I know where Margaret was coming from, and for someone of her generation and background it makes total sense. She was watching what was happening in Iran and her idea was "what if Iran but American Christians".

So I know why she imagined a pro-natalist authoritarianism. It would seem natural for her at that time. I find PD James more interesting now because she was imagining what would happen to society in a fertility bust, and that's closer to where we actually are.

*its terribly fitting lid

Auto correct grammar fail.

Coincidence reading this thread and seeing comment on RG because I read this earlier today.

I can quite believe that RG isn’t a nice person (along with lots of other famous comedians), but this article bugged me. Robin Ince has waited twenty years to say how horrible RG is and it was RG’s trans views that made him speak up? Also trots out argument that if someone you don’t like finds a comedian funny, there must be something wrong with the comedian.

I also loved the dinosaur sketch, soupy!

Ricky Gervais bullied me so badly I got a rash, says comedian

www.thetimes.com/article/c6c595a8-3e48-41eb-902b-271f78c15b68?shareToken=5167e46afbf72bc4edad477d5b923495

It was Robin Ince on Radio4 this morning that reminded me. I'd say it's obvious that Gervais is a bullying idiot. But honestly Robin, he's by far the more famous of the 2 of you so jumping on a bandwagon now is just irritating and desperate.

The way I see it for what it's worth:

• Media people get jobs in the media because they're entertaining and because they have contacts. The middle classification of all forms of popular media is sadly complete
• These people are often educated beyond their innate intellectual ability
• This means there's no room for independent thinkers. Herd thinking prevails.
• Also there's probably a huge unspoken pressure to assume the 'fashionable' view. Otherwise you might get frozen out of the North London dinner party circuit, oh noooees!
• The media environment is bitchy af and so you'll defo get bullied if you espouse wrongthink
• So everyone toes the line

Oh yes and

• Caitlin Moran has ALWAYS been a posho champagne socialist pick me who is blinded by delusions of her own coolness.

I have kind of a revisionist take on the history of BBC comedy. The approved version is, 1960s satire was great, then there was lazy conservative comedy in the 1970s, then alternative comedy came along and revitalised the scene.

A class analysis would say that in the 1960s BBC comedy was monopolised by Cambridge Footlights alumni, then in the 1970s they thought "oh fuck, our ratings are going down, let's bring in some popular club comedians", then in the 1980s Cambridge Footlights regained its monopoly. And despite all the radical posturing, it really was Cambridge Footlights, and it has been ever since.

I will never fail to be amused by Roy Chubby Brown opposing the Iraq War when lots of "alternative" comedians were very cosy with the governing class.

Which boils down to: media people beget media people, and it's usually only older successful performers who have been grandfathered into the system - Ricky Gervais or Dave Chappelle - who can dissent.

JKR too I suppose - it helps that she mostly stays in Edinburgh and doesn't care about being on the celebrity party circuit.