Feel sad that more people in the media don’t speak up

[FizzyCow]

I know this kind of thing has been posted before but I just need to vent about it.

I just feel so sad when I think about writers and broadcasters who I always respected and I felt challenged the norm and made me think differently about things. In reality they are all just privileged, wealthy people who only look like they are rocking the boat but in reality they just care about virtual signalling to their friends.

Caitlin Moran is a big one for me. I always loved her writing, I know the area she grew up in and saw her as different to the usual champagne socialist types. Now I just see her as over privileged and so out of touch. She wouldn’t understand how today’s accepted transgender views could negatively affect poor women today.

The same for Adam Buxton. I loved that he had a variety of people on his podcast and covered a variety of topics. Now I just think about what he doesn’t talk about and why. I recognise I am being totally naive to think that he would care.

Similar for Jane Garvey, loved her so much but she is depressingly silent on the issue.

I know none of these people have to say anything but it’s depressing that they don’t.

Robin Ince is about as funny as a dose of thrush.

Plus, he’s a massive hypocrite, because his entire schtick, such as it is, on the otherwise very good Infinite Monkey Cage podcast, is taking the piss out of Brian Cox’s accent/geekiness/popularity/hair.

Isn’t that pretty much what he’s accusing RG of? Or is it cute when you do it, Robin?

(I wonder what Brian Cox’s take on gender ideology is, incidentally. He’s decidedly non-woo in all other areas).

i understand why people are such flakes

I have some ‘contrary’ views and people just don’t like hearing anything that contradicts a norm. In this case it’s ’kindness and compassion to trans people’ that’s the norm. I get it completely, it’s not easy to go against a group held belief, you will be ostracised. And in this case your ostracism will align you with ‘far right bigots and terfs’

i understand it, but it’s still cowardly in the extreme. I don’t even think they believe it, but such is the social conformity they allow themselves to ignore their own actual thoughts. Scary stuff how disconnected people can be from their own thoughts.

The other problem is admitting you are wrong, lots / most people struggle with that and would rather just dig deeper.

Robin Wince spoils Infinite Monkey Cage for me, he's quite overbearing.

I believe that Atwood had a very big chat with Hadley Freeman and seemed to move more towards understanding the issues but hasn't been overly public. Preferring to critique the lack of debate and silencing

https://www.theguardian.com/books/ng-interactive/2022/feb/19/margaret-atwood-on-feminism-culture-wars?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

But then – as she has done so often in her books – Atwood surprises me with a plot twist. Just an hour or so later, she sends me several emails, some about the Galloway case, others elaborating on her thoughts about gender. This becomes an ongoing back and forth, in which she lays out her views, patiently and thoughtfully. Most of it is off the record, but I think she won’t mind me saying that, ultimately, we both want the same thing, which is truth and fairness.

The more we email, the more I realise we are not arguing about this the way I’m used to arguing about it, ie the social media way, which is just shouting at one another and not listening to the other’s point of view. We are genuinely curious to understand one another and send each other links we think the other will find interesting. After several days of this, I become self-conscious about how much of her time I am taking up, time she should be spending on her new book of short stories, and I apologise for being so stubbornly argumentative. She writes straight back: “Don’t worry, Hadley. Some people won’t really discuss things with me because they are intimidated. I agree with Orwell: the truth does matter.”

Preach
This interview is absolutely pathetic

https://www.theguardian.com/books/ng-interactive/2022/feb/19/margaret-atwood-on-feminism-culture-wars

I felt embarrassed for Margaret reading this. Has she been lobotomised?

the transmen comment she makes was the lamest most implausible “gotcha” moment that she can’t have said with conviction.
Hadley must have been eye rolling so hard but then even she backtracks
presumably the weight and pressure of his gaze - under the guardians his eye etc

just absolute cringe

@hamstersarse yes I do kind of get it. People never want to engage in nuance discussion nowadays so it’s tough. I think I just lack sympathy for those who are seen as generally outspoken in other areas. Their lack of willingness to engage is maddening. Sandy Togsvik is another! These people are all just cosy luvies who don’t want their privileges to change.

Yes Ben Elton is the biggie for me. My hero! And so many of his books and stand up routines are still so relevant today. But watching Ben Elton Live currently on Prime. I can’t think of anything else to say that others haven’t already said, I just think come on Ben. I mean come on you know this is all bollocks! Just speak your own truth that’s all we can do. He’s currently touring live and I haven’t managed to get tickets this time. Would be interested to know if his thoughts have evolved since the last tour

@TemuSpecialBuy she was awful in the interview but as it says near the end continued the conversation with Hadley via email, and was open to listening, unlike the majority of celebs who are cloth eared and even vehemently shout at women such as Jane Godley.

It's clear she'd swallowed silly stuff about trisomies and genetic differences. But that has been the overwhelming narrative for left leaning people in the US and Canada.

I agree, disappointed and annoyed at outspoken media people who are unusually quiet on this particular issue, especially those who shout loudly about everything else ie Caitlin Moran and Gary Linekar.

Used to like and respect Billy Bragg, think he's a total arrogant arse now.

I feel like I have been naive in liking and respecting so many celebs who I now see as gutless and unprincipled.

Ben Elton's novel 'Identity Crisis' is a good read on cancel culture and identity politics. Has he come out against women's rights or is he staying away from the topic ? I haven't seen him live but from this book he seemed to have a sensible view of it all.

Not sure about Ben Elton's views on women's rights. I suspect he's very close to getting it but never will.

This clip sums that up beautifully:

The clip cuts off the sentence "now that's what I can a knob gag" just before the end. To be fair to Ben (and I'm being as understanding as I can here), this was live TV and Jordan Gray had just ripped off that pink dress, "wowed" the audience with a piano-played-using-penis technique and then ended the delightful show with arms and legs in a star-shape while naked. The lyrics of Jordan's song were as offensive as the words in that Minstrels clip as far as appropriation and parody are concerned:

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/2024/04/22/im-better-than-you-jordan-gray/

Back to Ben: I'm going to read Identity Politics as it sounds right up my street. I still heartily recommend Blind Faith, as per my comments above.

Ben Elton is an example of so many men who get sooooooooooooooooo close to getting it but probably never will if they can't see it already. I assume his takeaway from Jordan's lyrics was that it was a hilariously edgy "stick it to the establishment" type of song. To be fair to Ben, it took me ages to understand why JK Rowling and others talked about the erasure of women and the sexism behind how people like Jordan Gray behave. It was one of the final things I understood about the impact of enforced gender identity belief. The final, final puzzle piece for me was why LGB and T didn't belong together. The impact on vulnerable, autistic children was my entry point and I was already pretty obsessed with understanding that side of things (to help my daughter) by the time those pennies dropped. Anyone who doesn't spend much time thinking about it at all - I'll assume Ben is such a person - is unlikely to get there, most likely because they think they already are.

I just read Ben Elton's books, and in one of them a character says something like 'we don't put men in women's prisons even if they are wearing a dress'. It was presented as a normal, everyday, common sense opinion and I'll be really pissed off if he's changed his mind about that.

Grrrrrr. FFS, Ben. Wake up. Or more specifically, wake up again. It sounds like you did once upon a time but have since dozed off.
🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬

I really hope that someone on here knows him and shows him this thread. He's clearly got a few fans of his work on here.

Edited to add: out of interest, which book was that? The chronology might be relevant. His "I'm Ben Elton and my pronouns are he/him" introduction of Jordan Gray was in October 2022.

Stephen Fry.

I’m desperately hoping Hugh Laurie doesn’t agree with him.

Monty Python obviously understood.

I’ve lost the post about Cambridge footlights I wanted to quote. Bah.

BonfireLady - I think it was Past Mortem? I also thought it was a detective that said it.

Ah cool, thanks @Thelnebriati I've got that one and read it ages ago. Twice I think. But I had no idea about any of this stuff back then so that line would have completely passed me by. I assume I processed as a combination of "well, duh. Obviously" and an assumption that nobody would be daft enough to think otherwise.

Ben Elton frustrates me. On several issues, not just this, he's really close to getting it, then he pulls back. Either it's thinking he's already got to a sensible position, or he's afraid of following his doubts to their conclusion.

Either it's thinking he's already got to a sensible position, or he's afraid of following his doubts to their conclusion.

This nails it.

I think it also applies to Margaret Atwood. Possibly also Sandy Toksvig and a few more.

There are plenty more for whom the first part applies but not the second. My assumption being that they aren't afraid but are content enough at the outcome of their own self-gaslighting and can comfortably hold (and sometimes vocally defend) their cognitive dissonance. I'd put Kirstie Allsop in this group.

The final group is the Never Even Going to Get Near To Getting It gang. Billy Bragg is firmly entrenched in this group. As are celebrities with children who have declared a gender identity that differs from their sex (including younger children, where the parents have effectively made this announcement for them).... soooooo many names to choose from here. Hello Mr Tennant 👏

Found it in This Other Eden;

''The little Garda convoy eventually pulled up in the courtyard of Dublin’s Central Police Station. Max was removed first.
‘Rosalie, I’ll —‘ he started to say.
‘I wish I’d never met you at all,’ she said, her eyes no longer fierce and strong, but liquid with sadness. ‘And I never want to see you again.’
‘You won’t, love,’ the Inspector assured her. ‘They don’t put men in women’s prisons, not even transvestites.’'

Billy Bragg was a huge disappointment. Not only his views on gender but the awful sneering way he speaks to women on Twitter. Stewart Lee is another one who has no idea what he's talking about on gender but doesn't let that stop him lecturing women.

I was disappointed Marian Keyes said nothing when JK Rowling was getting death and rape threats. I'd loved Marian’s books and I’d seen her supporting other women writers and feminist causes. I really thought she’d be willing to say, at the very least, that threats of violence are wrong. She didn't though and when I saw her husband liking articles in the Irish media about awful, bigoted terfs, it seemed obvious why.

I haven't felt the same about her since.

I'm not so much disappointed with WHAT certain celebs say (lets face it, it doesn't take much genuine courage to be a comedian or tv presenter and going along with the trendy narrative means they may get more work) but more HOW they say it. The David Tennant full frontal "they're just a bunch of moaning rat faced wee FUCKERS" type rants are displaying a level of contempt that it's hard to forget.

Someone else toeing the line using "she" for Mr Eddie Izzard is just someone toeing the line. It doesn't say much about them beyond they're more interested in their pay cheques than anything else, and frankly I don't always blame them. It's crap for anyone brave enough to step out and march to their own drum.

The cheerleaders and "wee fuckers" ranters are extremists and absolutely give me the willies.

Silence is complicity I suppose, but what's the phrase? Something about not saying anything means people think you're a fool, but saying something means people KNOW you're a fool?

There are a lot of proven fools out there, and a lot where we suspect they're keeping quiet to save their skins. I'm not sure if I feel much less contempt for the quiet ones than the "wee fuckers" ranters, but I suspect they hope we'll forget, eventually.

I'd not be so sure of that if I were them.

I get disappointed about writers or comedians because they're supposed to have some thinking skills. But often they don't care to think.

Actors not so much, because my fixed view of actors is that their careers are based on them being good looking and charismatic, but often they're not very bright. I like Malcolm Clark's theory that they take up causes as some kind of compensation for spending most of their lives reading other people's lines.

I can't find the quote, but I remember reading something about the politics of Hollywood and a Democratic operative was complaining that it was better in the old days when you just had a few activist actors like Susan Sarandon or Warren Beatty who really knew their causes. Now every idiot in the movies is constantly sounding off on Twitter and being taken seriously.

I feel sorry for these trans-identified kids who function as purse puppies for their famous parents. God knows what they'll think about it when they're older.

Yes to all this.

It's a very incestuous and small community at heart - everyone knows everyone at least second-hand, gossip spreads easily, and cliques form.

It's also worth emphasising that the jobs media people get are usually contractual, temporary and freelance, so if your political views start to loudly diverge from your pleasanter, apolitical North London chums, job offers will inevitably dry up. Everyone is chasing their next gig; in these circles, it takes a lot of money and a lack of vanity to have a backbone. Unless you're a big name (read: "does well in America"), production does not want the headache of working with anyone too difficult or controversial, so your career is dead if you're a woman or temporarily stalled if you're a man.

Essentially, the set-up of the media encourages and promotes nicey-nice arselickers, and that is why people don't speak up.

I understand when women don't say anything. The abuse has been horrific.

I don't understand when they openly support it, though. I'm a big women's football fan and fuck me, some of the players/journos are so much dumber than I thought they were. You welcome men into women's sport? Say goodbye to your career then, you complete moron. I've had to unfollow so many.

The BBC had a lesbian twitter commentator pop up briefly on the Chelsea-Villa game last night and I CRINGED so hard when they introduced her. She's a notorious trans fanatic. Hello cognitive dissonance? How do you even function?