‘Demure and mindful’ - oh great.

[LunaNorth]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm23zye08j4o

So this trend. I’m bridling at the ‘demure and mindful’ bullshit being promoted by someone who is performing femininity.

Demure and mindful women seldom make history. Here we go again, being sent back into our boxes by men.

you really, really have not explained what you think a woman is. try explaining it without using the word 'woman'

you do seem grumpy

Could you please answer my questions? I've been perfectly polite.

Sneering comments and slurs are also an ugly trait.

Thing is, people can be supportive of trans people without simply repeating a mantra such as ‘transwomen are women’.

That is your personal opinion on how people can support trans people. However, we also know that there are many male people
with transgender identifies that respect female people and they understand that they are not women. You seem to be only supporting one group of people with transgender identities.

Also, this is a feminist board and we support female trans people needs as those needs are shared because of a female sexed body.

Your accusations of people being anti-trans is false. It is based only on your personal understanding of what others believe. Which seems to be based on falsity.

Jeeez, my mental health is worth more than trying to reason with you lot: I’m off to bed! I reckon it wouldn’t be a bad idea for lots of you to log off and have a sleep on it!

what do all the people who have suffered from these things have in common @ElleWoods15 ?

• Symphysiotomy (google it, it will make you fucking furious)
• magdelene laundries
• menstruation huts
• the husband stitch
• vaginal mesh scandal
• chibok kidnapping

actually they're just random people aren't they? there's no pattern, what was I thinking?

Thanks for your input, Elle!

In order to identify as something, you need to have a clear picture of what that thing is.

To say “anyone is a woman who identifies as a woman” reduces the word “woman” to just letters on a page. It divorces the word from any material real thing.

You can only imagine what it is to identify as a “woman” because you already know what a woman is, as defined by the class of adult human females that have been referred to by this word for hundreds of years.

If you remove “woman” from meaning a real physical thing, there is nothing to identify as.

what do all the people who have suffered from these things have in common @ElleWoods15 ?

• Symphysiotomy (google it, it will make you fucking furious)
• magdelene laundries
• menstruation huts
• the husband stitch
• vaginal mesh scandal
• chibok kidnapping

actually they're just random people aren't they? there's no pattern, what was I thinking?

Yes, but I definitely think you're onto something. Maybe all those people should get together, make a movement to campaign against these things?

It's the total lack of empathy for women in other countries that I find particularly ugly. It's hard to believe that someone is seriously posting these comments. But I guess that's the internet for you. A sad window into the very unpleasant and uncaring world of some.

nah, they've got nothing in common.

crikey, gone but still reporting I see! paracetamol for the headache Elle.

Bloody hell, posts in this section get deleted quickly! I hope the moderators are getting paid well, they're clearly having a busy old time of it.

No thanks.

I have actually done the research about who is and isn’t female, and therefore who is and isn’t a woman. I find that knowing that the established science defines a female person as a human having a sexed body that has been formed around the production of large gametes. Whether that body ever produces those large gametes doesn’t cause me any stress at all. I don’t need to ‘sleep’ on this. It is an abiding definition that has not changed since the start of human life.

I also feel just as comfortable with the rejection of other’s philosophical beliefs that the words ‘woman’ and ‘girl’ has been destabilised to include those who are male people who have a body formed around the production of small gametes, whether the body produce those small gametes or not.

So, I don’t feel the need to sleep on it at all.

Oh shame, I was hoping you’d come back to me on my question as to how somebody would know they were living as a woman if there isn’t a list of prescribed characteristics. Because it all seems a terrible muddle at the moment.

If I were to be living as a man, how would I know?

And if I were to feel like I was really a man, what would that feel like? Because, you see, I’ve never been a man, so I don’t feel I would know what it feels like to be one. What would tell me that I do feel like I am one? How would I know if I did?

My OP has been derailed somewhat (cheers, ElleWoods15 et al!) but this article is a good example of why I start discussions on FWR.

I always come away a little bit more educated, a little bit wiser, and a little bit angrier.

If seeing Amnesty International using phrases such as ‘the crime of identifying as girls’ doesn’t make you incensed, then your empathy bypass is so complete that I can’t help you.

Who in their right mind would identify as a woman in Afghanistan? I bet ‘Demure and Mindful’ Whatsisname would kick his stilettos off fast enough to break some kind of world discus record and kill a passing donkey if he woke up and found himself over there.

Identifying as your choice of sex is the absolute epitome of a luxury belief, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

It's tiresome to be told that this section is an echo chamber when TRAs pretty much run the whole of Reddit. And no doubt other parts of the internet that I haven't even tried looking at.

This.

@Helleofabore

Yes. It was a different type of ‘fuck off’.

Ah. Not "Fuck off!" but "Fuck off..."

Still rude. And to clear up a misconception, we aren't all the same poster as some people appear to believe. As hard as it is to accept, other opinions do exist in this forum and sometimes are brave enough to speak up. You should welcome them rather than treat them as if they're in a boxing ring - one against ten.

A fuck that fuck off, rather than a fuck you fuck off then?

I think it covered “Fuck you” and “Fuck off” with one statement. It didn’t mean “Please do keep discussing this with me”.😄

💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡💡

And again, yes, it was rude. Yet the poster, freedomdogs I responded to had just completely twisted what I had said, into something that they then felt they could proceed to label bigoted and not just once, and actually told me that I hated even the fact that trans people existed which was completely false and told me to calm down when I was not furious.

Strangely, no poster who has reprimanded me for pushing back, has told that poster that they were rude too.

And I have not said that you were all one poster. So perhaps you are mistaken ?

Welcoming someone doesn’t mean that you, general you, cannot point out the weaknesses in their argument if their argument lacks substance or they, a general they, have just posted a falsity that has been posted and discussed repeatedly on a thread but that new poster can’t be arsed to read the thread before plopping down the post.

Do you, personally, believe that your view should be given affirming support just because you post in a public forum? Even if your view is not supported by evidence?

And generally, if a poster is posting their opinion which immediately displays a prejudiced view of the posters on a board, why should posters on a board accept being accused of being mean, hateful and bigoted, ignorant, far right, whatever the accusation ? Why should that accusation be accepted when it is based on whether a poster has accepted or rejected compliance of the other poster’s purely philosophical belief?

And why should a poster be welcomed if what they contribute to a thread amounts to censure of other’s language rather than contributing anything of substance that engages with the topic?

I came back to MN after a long hiatus and found the fwr board. It's been interesting.
@Helleofabore I think of you as a coherent and informative poster, you are one of a few names I recognise who have brought much thoughtful analysis.

Irl I have met many people who cannot tell me what being a woman feels like but believe that someone who is not a woman knows. I have friends of many faiths and of none, and I recognise the expectation, occasionally the need, to believe something without or despite objective evidence.

You will not convince someone who believes the earth is 7000 years old that the truth could be otherwise. If they do no harm you leave them to it. My posts are often a flippant and somewhat exasperated response @Helleofabore has more patience than I do, or perhaps more hope that entrenched conditioning can be overcome.

I am happy that the consequences of the current mania are being exposed, many people are being hurt by it mentally and physically.