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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August

428 replies

Wearingmybluejumper · 21/08/2024 07:12

The long awaited decision will apparently be live-streamed at 9 am Friday 23 August (AEST). See screenshot from X below.
I feel suddenly anxious!!

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August
OP posts:
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13
ArabellaScott · 23/08/2024 09:26

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-23/nsw-sydney-giggle-transgender-discrimination-court-judgment/104260546

'Sex Discrimination Commissioner at the Australian Human Rights Commission Anna Cody said she was "happy" discrimination had been recognised in the judgement.
"We now know that ... you cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity," Dr Cody said.

"I think that this judgement sends the message that we want an inclusive society in which all can participate, and that includes trans people who have a range of sexual orientations.
"She [Ms Tickle] wanted the ability to connect with other women around cooking, around recipes, around housing ... to be able to connect with people."'

Transgender woman's exclusion from female-only app was unlawful, judge finds

The exclusion of a transgender woman from a female-only app constituted unlawful discrimination due to gender identity, according to a landmark Federal Court ruling.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-23/nsw-sydney-giggle-transgender-discrimination-court-judgment/104260546

ArabellaScott · 23/08/2024 09:26

Cooking, recipes and housing, eh? I thought it was a dating app.

RedToothBrush · 23/08/2024 09:27

If sex is interchangeable than a man who harassed a woman on the basis of her sex can just call himself a woman and say that others have a gender identity not aligned with their sex and therefore he's not harassing anyone on the basis of their sex.

Humpty Dumpty law.

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 23/08/2024 09:28

It did have a lesbian dating section, but it had lots of other sections.
Like freelance work, travel companies, pen pals, all sorts.

RedToothBrush · 23/08/2024 09:29

ArabellaScott · 23/08/2024 09:26

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-23/nsw-sydney-giggle-transgender-discrimination-court-judgment/104260546

'Sex Discrimination Commissioner at the Australian Human Rights Commission Anna Cody said she was "happy" discrimination had been recognised in the judgement.
"We now know that ... you cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity," Dr Cody said.

"I think that this judgement sends the message that we want an inclusive society in which all can participate, and that includes trans people who have a range of sexual orientations.
"She [Ms Tickle] wanted the ability to connect with other women around cooking, around recipes, around housing ... to be able to connect with people."'

Homosexuals can not discriminate against heterosexuals on dating acts, because Humpty Dumpty.

They must accept heterosexuals into their dating pool, because Humpty Dumpty.

nauticant · 23/08/2024 09:30

RedToothBrush · 23/08/2024 09:27

If sex is interchangeable than a man who harassed a woman on the basis of her sex can just call himself a woman and say that others have a gender identity not aligned with their sex and therefore he's not harassing anyone on the basis of their sex.

Humpty Dumpty law.

A version of that has already happened in Spain:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5147727-but-this-never-happens-spain

ArabellaScott · 23/08/2024 09:30

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 23/08/2024 09:28

It did have a lesbian dating section, but it had lots of other sections.
Like freelance work, travel companies, pen pals, all sorts.

I see, thanks.

Snowypeaks · 23/08/2024 09:30

nauticant · 23/08/2024 08:47

There are exemptions, but if gender identity = sex then they're toothless against claimants like Tickle.

See sections 30-47: https://www.legislation.gov.au/C2004A02868/latest/text

Yes, I see. The Gillard amendment effectively abolished sex as a biological category.

ArabellaScott · 23/08/2024 09:31

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 23/08/2024 09:28

It did have a lesbian dating section, but it had lots of other sections.
Like freelance work, travel companies, pen pals, all sorts.

I think the previous commment about 'a range of sexual orientations' is a bit odd, then. That implied he was looking for a sexual relationship.

NecessaryScene · 23/08/2024 09:33

Yes, I see. The Gillard amendment effectively abolished sex as a biological category.

Which is the point of this case and pushing it up to the Supreme Court - to demonstrate that, and hence that Australia is in breach of various international treaties around sex. And as I believe they've been incorporated into its constitution, that means the amendment is unconstitutional.

RedToothBrush · 23/08/2024 09:34

nauticant · 23/08/2024 09:30

I know.

And it will happen more and more until women wake up.

TeaGinandFags · 23/08/2024 09:38

Judgement has been delivered

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/australia-roxanne-tickle-transgender-giggle-app-verdict-b2600669.html.

Dig deep, ladies.

Snowypeaks · 23/08/2024 09:39

NecessaryScene · 23/08/2024 09:33

Yes, I see. The Gillard amendment effectively abolished sex as a biological category.

Which is the point of this case and pushing it up to the Supreme Court - to demonstrate that, and hence that Australia is in breach of various international treaties around sex. And as I believe they've been incorporated into its constitution, that means the amendment is unconstitutional.

I know. I posted to that effect upthread. 🙂

AnotherCrazyCatLady · 23/08/2024 09:40

Have had a quick scan of the judgment. A few preliminary thoughts:

Judges cannot ignore or re-write statutes simply because they do not like them. The Sex Discrimination Act was amended to include protection on the basis of gender identity. The judge cannot decline to apply this because he or she does not like it. Once a statute says or has the effect that 'woman' is a sex category and a gender identity category, the claim, in a case like this, for discrimination on the basis of gender identity would seem to be clear cut. The question is whether there is a further mechanism in the statute for that discrimination to be permissible. In the SDA, such mechanisms exist. However, it appears that the respondents' (ie, Sall's) main argument was not based on those mechanisms; rather, it was that any discrimination against Tickle was on the basis of sex. The difficulty is that this is seeking to introduce, via the back or even front door, the argument that woman has only one meaning. But that's not what the SDA says.

The case also turned in large part on whether the federal parliament had the authority – power – to amend the SDA. This authority comes from the Australian Constitution, which sets out the matters over which the parliament may make laws. This argument is not based on any substantive evaluation of the law, but whether the parliament has the authority to pass it. The judge held that the amendment was constitutional. I don't have expertise in this area, but I suspect the argument that the amendment is unconstitutional might be difficult to sustain.

In terms of next appeals steps - as this is a Federal Court case, heard by a single judge, the usual mechanism would be to appeal to the Full Court of the Federal Court (where three judges would hear the case). After that, the next (and final) step is an appeal is the High Court of Australia. What I don't know is whether there is an appeal route direct to the High Court, to bypass the Full Court. That said, I'm not sure whether the respondents would find success in the High Court, because none of the above analysis changes in that court. The High Court cannot disregard the statute. There is also the question of whether the respondents could change their pleadings, for instance to argue that there was no indirect discrimination because the measures fell within exclusions in the SDA.

That is, I suspect that what Sall really wants is for the SDA to be amended. Politically, the case may put pressure on the Austrailan government to provide greater clarity on the interaction between sex and gender identity provisions in the SDA. Of course, one risk is that clarity is not in the direction Sall wants.

CantSleepSweet · 23/08/2024 09:42

ApocalipstickNow · 23/08/2024 08:35

This is from the BBC article

When Tickle’s lawyer Georgina Costello KC cross examined Grover, she said:
“Even where a person who was assigned male at birth transitions to a woman by having surgery, hormones, gets rid of facial hair, undergoes facial reconstruction, grows their hair long, wears make up, wears female clothes, describes themselves as a woman, introduces themselves as a woman, uses female changing rooms, changes their birth certificate – you don’t accept that is a woman?

So that’s a woman is it? Would anyone argue a woman who didn’t do those things was NOT a woman? (Well, yeah, but we know exactly who has always said that don’t we?)

So on that definition - if I give my horse growth hormones, surgery to add ears and a trunk, dye her dark grey, send her to a zoo and start calling her Nelly, she is now an elephant and absolutely nobody has the right to dispute that fact? Yes? OK then, Australia.

BananaBender · 23/08/2024 09:42

I’m loathe to say anything positive about Pauline Hanson but she might be useful in the fight for women’s rights in Australia. She says she’s got legislation ready for when federal parliament sits again. (Google Pauline Hanson, please explain, and xenophobia. She’s a racist POS.)

https://twitter.com/paulinehansonoz/status/1826859806042526088?s=46&t=v_dyQOsjuTO3FaEMMOgsqw

x.com

https://twitter.com/paulinehansonoz/status/1826859806042526088?s=46&t=v_dyQOsjuTO3FaEMMOgsqw

Snowypeaks · 23/08/2024 09:44

AnotherCrazyCatLady · 23/08/2024 09:40

Have had a quick scan of the judgment. A few preliminary thoughts:

Judges cannot ignore or re-write statutes simply because they do not like them. The Sex Discrimination Act was amended to include protection on the basis of gender identity. The judge cannot decline to apply this because he or she does not like it. Once a statute says or has the effect that 'woman' is a sex category and a gender identity category, the claim, in a case like this, for discrimination on the basis of gender identity would seem to be clear cut. The question is whether there is a further mechanism in the statute for that discrimination to be permissible. In the SDA, such mechanisms exist. However, it appears that the respondents' (ie, Sall's) main argument was not based on those mechanisms; rather, it was that any discrimination against Tickle was on the basis of sex. The difficulty is that this is seeking to introduce, via the back or even front door, the argument that woman has only one meaning. But that's not what the SDA says.

The case also turned in large part on whether the federal parliament had the authority – power – to amend the SDA. This authority comes from the Australian Constitution, which sets out the matters over which the parliament may make laws. This argument is not based on any substantive evaluation of the law, but whether the parliament has the authority to pass it. The judge held that the amendment was constitutional. I don't have expertise in this area, but I suspect the argument that the amendment is unconstitutional might be difficult to sustain.

In terms of next appeals steps - as this is a Federal Court case, heard by a single judge, the usual mechanism would be to appeal to the Full Court of the Federal Court (where three judges would hear the case). After that, the next (and final) step is an appeal is the High Court of Australia. What I don't know is whether there is an appeal route direct to the High Court, to bypass the Full Court. That said, I'm not sure whether the respondents would find success in the High Court, because none of the above analysis changes in that court. The High Court cannot disregard the statute. There is also the question of whether the respondents could change their pleadings, for instance to argue that there was no indirect discrimination because the measures fell within exclusions in the SDA.

That is, I suspect that what Sall really wants is for the SDA to be amended. Politically, the case may put pressure on the Austrailan government to provide greater clarity on the interaction between sex and gender identity provisions in the SDA. Of course, one risk is that clarity is not in the direction Sall wants.

I hope we can all now see how important it is to prevent GI becoming a legal concept or the definition of woman expanded to include men.

Snowypeaks · 23/08/2024 09:47

The law in this area is an ass, and Australian women need to know about it. It's all got this far because information has been suppressed. Seems like it is trickling out now.

BananaBender · 23/08/2024 09:49

marmaladian · 23/08/2024 07:39

Can you PM me the forum pls? ta

Same initials as the original one that Fairfax/9 shut down.

BananaBender · 23/08/2024 09:55

Sall Grover will be on Channel 9’s A Current Affair tonight. Show starts in 8 mins. Here’s their YouTube channel where the segment should be uploaded. If not there then try their FB page.

https://youtube.com/@acurrentaffair9?si=2AQBE-XqZZOWU08f

Before you continue to YouTube

https://youtube.com/@acurrentaffair9?si=2AQBE-XqZZOWU08f

Winter2020 · 23/08/2024 09:55

Is anyone aware of a go fund me type page for donating to the legal costs of an appeal?

Apologies if one has already been linked - I have only read back a couple of pages but I haven't been able to find anything by googling.

AnotherCrazyCatLady · 23/08/2024 09:56

@Snowypeaks I should add that this is not my area, and I have not read the case in detail!

But once you recognise sex and gender identity in discrimination law, you need to think about what happens in the (inevitable) case of conflict.

From chatting with Australian (feminist) friends, I suspect that, on this matter, many are still motivated by the desire to be kind. To be clear, I also agree with being kind to others! But I suspect there is a lack of realisation that, for those who strongly support the concept of gender identity, 'TWAW' is not just a shorthand for treating people respectfully and politely, it is a legal and even biological fact.

One irony is that Australian feminism in the 1970s and 1980s had a big debate about the status of trans women, and I think the conclusion of that debate was that trans women are not women. You see this in the views of people like Germaine Greer.

BananaBender · 23/08/2024 09:57

@Winter2020 There’s a link on Sall’s Twitter/X page.

nauticant · 23/08/2024 09:58

Winter2020 · 23/08/2024 09:55

Is anyone aware of a go fund me type page for donating to the legal costs of an appeal?

Apologies if one has already been linked - I have only read back a couple of pages but I haven't been able to find anything by googling.

It's in the name of Giggle. Search for that together with something to do with raising funds.

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