Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August

[Wearingmybluejumper]

The long awaited decision will apparently be live-streamed at 9 am Friday 23 August (AEST). See screenshot from X below.
I feel suddenly anxious!!

Does it actually make a difference in Australia what the single sex space is? In my mind, restriction on the grounds of sex should be limited to areas of life where it is actually necessary for safety, modesty or practicality rather for society reasons. I fundamentally object to all male clubs and societies for instance so the flip side to be fair to all is that I can't see why you need a female only either.

However all female hospital wards, rape crisis centres, breastfeeding classes etc - yes basis of your chromosomes is practical and potentially necessary (there should be all male rape crisis centres too btw, also refuges I'm not saying men can't be victims too).

I've read the judgement and it's made me on the fence as whilst I believe to be a woman you need xx chromosomes, i also don't see what the issue is with a person, who apparently had been using the app for months and it doesn't state they had caused issues, using it, what's the harm - men use Mumsnet, it's fine and sometimes a male view is actually useful.

Mumsnet isn’t just for women though.

Men are welcome/allowed and will be challenged even banned if they break talk guidelines or just piss everyone of by chatting shit.

This app was specifically for women. How often do you say “oh, this one isn’t causing any bother” before you have to accept it’s no longer women only?

If your USP is women only it has to reject all men.

I've read the judgement and it's made me on the fence as whilst I believe to be a woman you need xx chromosomes, i also don't see what the issue is with a person, who apparently had been using the app for months and it doesn't state they had caused issues, using it, what's the harm - men use Mumsnet, it's fine and sometimes a male view is actually useful.

Whether you think it's necessary is irrelevant.

Somebody wants to create it - the question is are you going to tell her she's not allowed to?

The law does provide exemptions mitogoshi but the problem is that the law also provides that the concept of sex, in effect, includes gender identity. Thus causing mischief to the exemptions.

Australia is no longer the land down under. It's the upside down.

Thanks Sal for all you've done. It's payday today so I will be gardening for the appeal.

Hmm.

This. And it sounds like this was anticipated by the defence as the response but they proceeded with defending rather than settling out of court much earlier for good reason.

Sounds a lot like long game and strategy adopted taking this into consideration.

I'm hoping that the defence put forward included arguments around indirect discrimination and the exemptions that will provide sufficient grounds for appeal.

what's the harm - men use Mumsnet, it's fine and sometimes a male view is actually useful.

Only if the audience is aware they are getting a male view. I suspect quite often on MN women seeking advice are getting responses from men who are not open about being men so they think it's advice/opinions are from other women.

If the advice you're seeking is how to make the best tomato soup it probably doesn't matter. If the advice wanted is more personal in nature - relationships, sex, gyne issues, safeguarding then it becomes more of a problem.

The victory video if you can bear it.

https://x.com/Sorelle_Arduino/status/1826904954834948471?t=0XQ1r4GKa29PKbMhlVNoRg&s=19

Fuck, what a rollercoaster. I'm absolutely fuming.

But, we all know the direction of travel with this. Just because terf island is miles ahead, with the destination in sight, it doesn't mean that other countries are travelling at the same speed.

But they are travelling.

To me, this is a necessary setback. It has to go through the process. And part of that process is just informing the public.

Even if it's one bloody person at a time.

Because once you see it, it's game over.

This is sunlight. Women's fury is sunlight, the photographs of these revolting men is sunlight, the misogyny is sunlight and the quite staggering lack of logic and consistency to the whole fucking issue is blinding in its illumination of quite how unbelievably incoherent trans ideology is.

It makes these judges look like utter twats, legally hamstrung by what is turning out to be a lot of weirdos and fetishists.

It's infuriating, of course. But fury and frustration is the correct, appropriate and natural reaction.

As a pp said, the backlash won't stop.

By this logic, no woman can EVER have services or spaces without men unless in an especially vulnerable condition such as having breasts exposed or having been victim of sexual violence. That's more restrictive than the current exclusion of having a 'legitimate aim'.

You are saying no women should be able to convene with other women by law. No lesbian meetings, no women's rights meetings, no discussion spaces at all that a man can't enter by law against the wishes of all women in that space. I would say that this is an extreme role for the state to play in our public lives.

I think sometimes women assess these issues by their own level of comfort and don't realise that they're actually advocating to make behaviour - such as convening without men - illegal for other women. That goes for developing countries too by the way, where these issues are no where near settled. So you may not see a need. Other women most certainly do.

Thanks for the tips to find the fundraiser. In case there is a problem with posting the link (scammers etc) I searched for Sall Grover to find her verified account on X (with the blue flower with a tick) and there is a link to the fundraiser on her account.

The donation is in Australian Dollars so I used a converter online to get an idea what they are worth and donating £21 dollars (20 dollars plus 1 dollar admin - which was optional) has cost £10.84 from my bank. Different banks might have different currency exchange rates though I guess or there might be a sterling conversion fee to be added I'm not sure.

The messages of support on the fundraiser come from all over the world!

At the moment they have raised £578,695 of a target of £850K

Reem Alsalem has commented.

Not only disappointed but also very concerned about this dystopian ruling on #TickleVGiggle , which distorts key concepts like sex and discrimination while dodging Australia's international human rights obligations vis-à-vis women.

If unchallenged, this decision would set a dangerous precedent.

More detailed reaction from me next week.

https://x.com/UNSRVAW/status/1826909907829874950?t=rJLVSE8LQLw-q8OpVtec_w&s=19

Well said.

I wonder what the first decision would have been had this case been tried in the UK? I'm not confident that a British Sall Grover would have won here.

Sure, we're further down the road in the UK, and the law here is bonkers in ways different to the law in Australia, but having more progress here about freedom of belief and speech doesn't mean freedom to carrying out exclusion in practice.

That's phenomenal! And quite right, too because this case has global implications.

This isn't necessarily true. Precisely because it's at complete odds with English law.

@RedToothBrush I was considering /concerned about the rest of the world rather than implications for U.K. law.

However, operation let then speak is exceptionally relevant here, especially when you see images of the complainant. Who I notice the bbc avoid picturing.

Yes this is what im concerned about

I posted this earlier but thread moved quickly. If in Australia your sex literally changes with your gender identity, what is a trans person? Can trans people exist when everyone's sex "matches" their gender id?

I just saw the BBC story.
Well, fuck.

Anything else I would like to say would get me a deletion.

Edited for typo.

The BBC also has a story today about a gay penguin.

I kid you not.

Not only do women not do that kind of thing but, if they did, it wouldn't have the same impact as a man in a women's space. That's the whole thing many men, and sadly plenty of women allies, are refusing to acknowledge.

Does this also mean that trans people can't have their own events/groups too?

She would be all too aware of what happens to women in those countries where women already have few rights and are oppressed and marginalised due to their sex. Rightfully pissed off on this ruling has the potential to magnify those harms and erase any rights.

I think it also included things like finding flat shares/a lodger for your own home.

So there were safeguarding implications as well.