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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August

428 replies

Wearingmybluejumper · 21/08/2024 07:12

The long awaited decision will apparently be live-streamed at 9 am Friday 23 August (AEST). See screenshot from X below.
I feel suddenly anxious!!

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August
OP posts:
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13
Inlaw · 23/08/2024 01:26

Thanks @JemimaTiggywinkles

Guardian have posted Tickle.

Have they seen the light or are they so blind they think that’s helping 🤣

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 01:26

no lesbian wants to fuck a bloke tho so they soon gona be full of men only. good for gay men I guess, they can start to use them

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 01:28

Inlaw · 23/08/2024 01:26

Thanks @JemimaTiggywinkles

Guardian have posted Tickle.

Have they seen the light or are they so blind they think that’s helping 🤣

I think they are deluded, they may change it after seeing the beeb one. and how usefully opaque it is

Snowypeaks · 23/08/2024 01:34

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 01:28

I think they are deluded, they may change it after seeing the beeb one. and how usefully opaque it is

The BBC are just fucking evil for doing that.

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 01:36

Lying liars and the lying lies they tell.

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 01:39

Dose anyone else think men should not be hearing cases on woman's rights?

We should start a campaign.

I think men are just not capable of delivering justice for women

annejumps · 23/08/2024 01:48

Christinapple · 23/08/2024 01:25

Never used one have you?

Lesbian dating app Her (which glinner signed up for to cause trouble only to be kicked off) allows trans women, has done so from the start and has no plans to change as they are doing very well. They publicly support trans women users and don't tolerate any trolling or stalking of users.

Grindr also permits trans users.

No, I don't use lesbian dating apps, as I am not a lesbian. More people should try that!
But kudos for taking my flip comment and strawmanning it.

annejumps · 23/08/2024 01:50

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 01:23

Its actually really nasty propaganda. Usually you would def expect a photo of the successful applicant, even if its in the body of the article.
This time nothing, and the heading pic could just about conceivably be construed as a tw making tickle seem more sympathetic than he would if you got a glimpse of him.
More shitty behavior from the beeb.

It's very deliberately done. Must frame everything about trans-identifying men as sympathetically as possible...! Lest people see something like, an obvious male demanding to be on a lesbian dating app, say.

Dustyblue · 23/08/2024 02:11

Bloody madness. I don't care how he views himself or what medical interventions he's had. At the end of the story he is not a woman and never will be.

If this opens the floodgates to other transwomen to claim compensation for their mental distress at being excluded I am moving to another planet.

WeeBisom · 23/08/2024 02:19

So if the guardian article is correct , in 2013 the sex discrimination law in Australia was changed to include gender identity. At least we have the equality act which has no such concept.

Snowypeaks · 23/08/2024 02:22

And the definitions of man and woman were removed.

Toseland · 23/08/2024 02:42

JFC - just heard the news - grrrrrrrrrr!

marmaladian · 23/08/2024 02:54

Australian here - totally support Sall - sad but not surprised.
Also, if I'm correct, sex as a construct was replaced as Gi by our one and only female PM. Julia Gillard . Hopefully I'm wrong. What a fecking fiasco.

WarriorN · 23/08/2024 02:55

I find the final few sentences if the bbc article chilling

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August
miri1985 · 23/08/2024 03:14

I'm just reading the judgement and I'm baffled, I am legally trained but not in Australian law. My interpretation is that there can no longer be any kind of single sex spaces because it is indirectly discriminate, they didin't succeed on direct discrimination because they couldn't prove that Giggle knew Tickle was trans but excluding anyone from the service because they may have been trans was indirectly discriminate. To my mind it means there can be no single sex spaces in Australia which seems nuts, gender identity has completely rode roughshod over sex in Australian law and you can no longer exclude anyone from anything,there is no legitimate basis because of gender identity

"78 It is implicit in s 5B(1) that the discriminator actually be aware of a person’s gender identity, or the characteristic that generally appertains or is imputed to persons of the same gender identity. But that awareness is different from a requirement that a person have some additional belief about the legitimacy of that gender identity. In short, if it were established that the respondents had been aware of Ms Tickle’s gender identity, but dismissed its legitimacy and for that reason excluded her from the Giggle App, her case of direct discrimination would likely have succeeded. "

"80 Less attention was paid to s 5B(2) by both sides, despite it being the real thrust of Ms Tickle’s case. Section 5B(2) provides that indirect gender identity discrimination involves the imposition of a condition, practice or requirement that has, or is likely to have, the effect of disadvantaging persons who have the same gender identity as the aggrieved person. The provision is largely directed to kinds of discrimination that are facially neutral, but have a discriminatory effect, intended or otherwise. It requires identification of a comparator group by which the disadvantage of persons who share a gender identity with the aggrieved person can be compared. In this case, the comparator is self-evident: cisgender women. That enables the treatment of transgender women to be compared to the treatment of cisgender women by the application of the imposed condition as to appearance."

So if a man with a male gender identity was excluded, then they could argue that they would be discriminated against and use a comparitor of a trans man who may be included because they look like a woman.

If there are any male only spaces in Australia, I hope women start demanding entry and waving this ruling around. If we're told gender identity trumps sex, what about religion, can a semenary say no women now? Can a mosque seperate based on sex etc?

sashh · 23/08/2024 03:29

This is so depressing.

So an IVF clinic now has to prescribe hormone stimulating drugs?

@miri1985 some good points re the seminary and mosque.

27Bumblebees · 23/08/2024 04:01

Uggh in Australia, so disappointed with this news. Jumped straight onto mn to join the discussion. I'm part of the parents & citizens (P&C) association for my kids school, including a wellbeing sub group, and a friend just shared the article with a thumbs up. I'll be keeping an eye but not sure i can join the conversation honestly as one of the members is "non binary" so I feel like I'll be ousted or worse

Helleofabore · 23/08/2024 04:06

marmaladian · 23/08/2024 02:54

Australian here - totally support Sall - sad but not surprised.
Also, if I'm correct, sex as a construct was replaced as Gi by our one and only female PM. Julia Gillard . Hopefully I'm wrong. What a fecking fiasco.

It is indeed Gillard who pushed through the change to our Anti-discrimination Act in 2013.

The same Gillard that is lionised for being the ultimate feminist based on that speech.

Rightsraptor · 23/08/2024 04:50

Julia Gillard is as much a feminist as Nicola Sturgeon.

I'm really disappointed by this shit result, though not in the least surprised. As others have said, judges apply the law, they don't make it. This one needs unmaking. All this talk of 'gender identity' when such a thing isn't even proven to exist.

Also, Giggle is/was not a lesbian dating app per se. It was a general online space for women to use in many ways.

BananaBender · 23/08/2024 05:00

Gillard is a traitor. She screwed women over with the changes to the sex discrimination act when sex was removed and replaced by gender.

Religious institutions are exempt from anti discrimination. They can freely discriminate because religion.

Hello to anyone from my Australian forum. 👋 This is where we can freely talk about the subjects that are banned on that forum. It also means that you can’t complain and cry to a mod that you’re feeling triggered or upset and try to get members banned, so suck it up or go clutch some pearls.

fromorbit · 23/08/2024 05:53

BananaBender
Gillard is a traitor. She screwed women over with the changes to the sex discrimination act when sex was removed and replaced by gender.

Religious institutions are exempt from anti discrimination. They can freely discriminate because religion.

Well if the appeal doesn't work then I guess women will be forced to set up a dating/social app for "nuns", "Jewish women" or "Muslim women" only. Or just for female witches I guess. That will be legal and men won't be able to do anything because that would involve undermining male dominated religions [except the pagans] which of course the laws are set up to allow.

Absurd, but that maybe the situation.

NecessaryScene · 23/08/2024 06:12

But why was it discrimination on the basis of gender identity? If Tickle is alleged to have a "female gender identity", surely there are plenty of women on the app also alleged to have "female gender identities" (whether they think they do or not).

And if he really is legally a "woman" there's nothing to distinguish him from them? He's not legally a "male with a female identity", surely? I thought he was claiming to be legally female.

It would have to be discrimination on some other basis - it could be "gender reassignment", if that's a legal thing, rather than "gender identity"?

Or is it "she perceived me to be male (though I'm not) and discriminated against me on that basis, which would be indirectly discriminatory against males with female gender identities - if they existed which they don't because they're female."

sashh · 23/08/2024 06:13

my alter ego on twix has suggested women apply to join the men's only Australia Club in Sydney.