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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August

428 replies

Wearingmybluejumper · 21/08/2024 07:12

The long awaited decision will apparently be live-streamed at 9 am Friday 23 August (AEST). See screenshot from X below.
I feel suddenly anxious!!

Tickle v Giggle decision Friday 23 August
OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Delphin · 23/08/2024 11:16

@Rymeswithpunt
I think we need to start thinking of any ways men benefit from single sex services and start a campaign to breach them.

That was what I was thinking, when I read about (female-identified) men starting to use the Ladies' Pond in Hampstead/London. Why aren't we getting together, and use the Gentlemen's Pond. And if we dare, we paint on a moustache or go topless (these are male breasts, I don 't need to cover them!). We would need a war chest for the fines however, if I remember correctly, women who tried this a few years ago were dragged before the kadi.
😈
And next step: Men-only clubs? Dress up in suits (womens suits okay) , and go for a drink at the club?
And next?

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 11:31

I think the Freemasons should be targeted by women with men feelz for a start

Rymeswithpunt · 23/08/2024 11:32

Mens golf and social clubs.

KCOZ · 23/08/2024 12:07

marmaladian · 23/08/2024 07:39

Can you PM me the forum pls? ta

Me too pls.
Gutted but not surprised by this decision. And embarrassed to be Australian.

timenowplease · 23/08/2024 12:26

Delphin · 23/08/2024 11:16

@Rymeswithpunt
I think we need to start thinking of any ways men benefit from single sex services and start a campaign to breach them.

That was what I was thinking, when I read about (female-identified) men starting to use the Ladies' Pond in Hampstead/London. Why aren't we getting together, and use the Gentlemen's Pond. And if we dare, we paint on a moustache or go topless (these are male breasts, I don 't need to cover them!). We would need a war chest for the fines however, if I remember correctly, women who tried this a few years ago were dragged before the kadi.
😈
And next step: Men-only clubs? Dress up in suits (womens suits okay) , and go for a drink at the club?
And next?

I've always been jealous of those Men's Sheds🤔

The Men's Pond at Hampstead has already been done as you say. The police were called! Fucking liberty.

WeeBisom · 23/08/2024 12:28

Looking through the judgment, and here's the definition of gender identity in the Sex Discrimination Act: "gender identity means the gender-related identity, appearance or mannerisms or other gender-related characteristics of a person (whether by way of medical intervention or not), with or without regard to the person’s designated sex at birth." Note that 'gender' hasn't been defined.The introduction of 'gender identity' as a protected characteristic has entirely confused and screwed up the sex discrimination act.

Some thoughts on key bits:

Paras 55 to 57 say sex is not confined to a biological concept, nor is it binary. Sex can be changed. Being 'non binary' is a separate sex from being male or female. Sex can also encompass legal sex, how a person presents themselves, and how they are recognised socially. This shows how crucial it is to stand firm on the concept of biological sex, and to get rid of legal sex fictions.

Para 74, the judge says that gender identity encompasses transgender people and also cisgender people. Given that transgender people are already protected in law, it's unclear why they need an additional 'gender identity' protected characteristic. This also leads to the possibility that a service could be provided for 'cisgender' women only

Para 76 points out that you cannot evade a claim of gender identity discrimination by saying you were discriminating on the basis of sex. Given that sex and gender identity overlap to such a degree, this means it is no longer possible to exclude males from female spaces on the basis that they are male. Their gender identity also has to be taken into account.

78 says that if Grover had known that Tickle had a 'female gender identity' but 'dismissed its legitimacy' and then excluded him from the app this would be direct discrimination on the basis of gender identity. This means that any male can just say 'I have a female gender identity', and if he is then rejected from a service direct discrimination is made out. There is no test proposed for how you decide the 'legitimacy' of someone's gender identity.

Para 85, Grover said that the app should be excused as a special measure aiming to achieve equality between men and women. This argument would have succeeded if Tickle was a cisgender man who was banned from the app. However, Tickle is a man with a female gender identity so the argument doesn't work . Para 86 says that special measures to achieve equality between men and women (in effect, female only spaces) cannot be used as a shield against discrimination on the basis of gender identity. Given that any man can claim to have a female identity, this makes it practically impossible to have any single sex spaces in Australian law.

Para 131 says that it is direct discrimination to deny there is a legitimate distinction between transgender women and cisgender men. The judge seems disappointed that the cross examination didn't delve deep enough to establish direct discrimination.

134, the condition of applicants needing to 'appear to be cisgender females' indirectly discriminates against transgender women because they appear to be male. This means if you want to exclude a man, you have to first check if he has a female gender identity. if he does, you cannot exclude.

In short, the judge did appear to be fettered by the law before him. This mess can only be fixed by a higher court sorting this out or legislative changes. But the effect is that women cannot discriminate against and exclude males with female identities without committing unlawful discrimination.

OvaHere · 23/08/2024 12:41

134, the condition of applicants needing to 'appear to be cisgender females' indirectly discriminates against transgender women because they appear to be male. This means if you want to exclude a man, you have to first check if he has a female gender identity. if he does, you cannot exclude.

This is a piss takers wet dream. Absolute clown world.

eatfigs · 23/08/2024 12:51

Not sure if anyone's posted this yet, it's a clip from an Australian current affairs programme:

https://x.com/RachaelWongAus/status/1826933372549316706

Sall is interviewed near the end.

x.com

https://x.com/RachaelWongAus/status/1826933372549316706

NutellaEllaElla · 23/08/2024 12:52

Donated. I think she's going to smash that target.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 23/08/2024 12:59

Captured judge by sounds of it

Hopefully will be overturned on appeal

NecessaryScene · 23/08/2024 13:02

indirectly discriminates against transgender women because they appear to be male

Do they? Is the judgment inconsistently using a sex-based definition of male there?

BabaYagasHouse · 23/08/2024 13:02

WeeBisom · 23/08/2024 12:28

Looking through the judgment, and here's the definition of gender identity in the Sex Discrimination Act: "gender identity means the gender-related identity, appearance or mannerisms or other gender-related characteristics of a person (whether by way of medical intervention or not), with or without regard to the person’s designated sex at birth." Note that 'gender' hasn't been defined.The introduction of 'gender identity' as a protected characteristic has entirely confused and screwed up the sex discrimination act.

Some thoughts on key bits:

Paras 55 to 57 say sex is not confined to a biological concept, nor is it binary. Sex can be changed. Being 'non binary' is a separate sex from being male or female. Sex can also encompass legal sex, how a person presents themselves, and how they are recognised socially. This shows how crucial it is to stand firm on the concept of biological sex, and to get rid of legal sex fictions.

Para 74, the judge says that gender identity encompasses transgender people and also cisgender people. Given that transgender people are already protected in law, it's unclear why they need an additional 'gender identity' protected characteristic. This also leads to the possibility that a service could be provided for 'cisgender' women only

Para 76 points out that you cannot evade a claim of gender identity discrimination by saying you were discriminating on the basis of sex. Given that sex and gender identity overlap to such a degree, this means it is no longer possible to exclude males from female spaces on the basis that they are male. Their gender identity also has to be taken into account.

78 says that if Grover had known that Tickle had a 'female gender identity' but 'dismissed its legitimacy' and then excluded him from the app this would be direct discrimination on the basis of gender identity. This means that any male can just say 'I have a female gender identity', and if he is then rejected from a service direct discrimination is made out. There is no test proposed for how you decide the 'legitimacy' of someone's gender identity.

Para 85, Grover said that the app should be excused as a special measure aiming to achieve equality between men and women. This argument would have succeeded if Tickle was a cisgender man who was banned from the app. However, Tickle is a man with a female gender identity so the argument doesn't work . Para 86 says that special measures to achieve equality between men and women (in effect, female only spaces) cannot be used as a shield against discrimination on the basis of gender identity. Given that any man can claim to have a female identity, this makes it practically impossible to have any single sex spaces in Australian law.

Para 131 says that it is direct discrimination to deny there is a legitimate distinction between transgender women and cisgender men. The judge seems disappointed that the cross examination didn't delve deep enough to establish direct discrimination.

134, the condition of applicants needing to 'appear to be cisgender females' indirectly discriminates against transgender women because they appear to be male. This means if you want to exclude a man, you have to first check if he has a female gender identity. if he does, you cannot exclude.

In short, the judge did appear to be fettered by the law before him. This mess can only be fixed by a higher court sorting this out or legislative changes. But the effect is that women cannot discriminate against and exclude males with female identities without committing unlawful discrimination.

Thanks for this WeeBisom

FlirtsWithRhinos · 23/08/2024 13:11

ApocalipstickNow · 23/08/2024 08:35

This is from the BBC article

When Tickle’s lawyer Georgina Costello KC cross examined Grover, she said:
“Even where a person who was assigned male at birth transitions to a woman by having surgery, hormones, gets rid of facial hair, undergoes facial reconstruction, grows their hair long, wears make up, wears female clothes, describes themselves as a woman, introduces themselves as a woman, uses female changing rooms, changes their birth certificate – you don’t accept that is a woman?

So that’s a woman is it? Would anyone argue a woman who didn’t do those things was NOT a woman? (Well, yeah, but we know exactly who has always said that don’t we?)

Even where a person who was born in Ireland and lives in Ireland transitions to an Italian by having surgery, gets rid of facial hair, undergoes facial reconstruction, uses an Italian hairdresser, wears Italian cologne, wears Italian clothes, describes themselves as an Italian, introduces themselves as an Italian, uses Italian restaurants, changes their name to Guiseppe – you don’t accept that is an Italian?

Even where a person who was assigned human at birth transitions to a tiger by having surgery, implants whiskers, undergoes facial reconstruction, grows dyes their hair stripey, wears make up, wears no clothes, describes themselves as a tiger, introduces themselves as a tiger, uses animal facilities, changes their birth certificate – you don’t accept that is a tiger?

Even where a person who has lived 40 years since birth transitions to a child by having surgery, hormones, gets rid of facial hair, undergoes facial reconstruction, plays with children's toys, eats children's food, wears children's clothes, describes themselves as a child, introduces themselves as a child, uses children's changing rooms, disavows their birth certificate – you don’t accept that is a child?

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 23/08/2024 13:14

#IStandWithSallGrover has been trending at no4 pretty much all day for me so far, this is going to blast so much sunlight onto it, and hopefully open a few eyes along the way.

It's a bloody awful shame it went the way it did, but (trying to see the positive here) if she won he likely would have skulked away and the media wouldn't have been interested. That would have been it. Now all the attention is on the case, but the trending hashtag stands with HER. A pyrrhic victory indeed. Come the high court, Australia will face scrutiny on it's shitty law like never before.

tobee · 23/08/2024 13:24

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 23/08/2024 11:13

Does this also mean that trans people can't have their own events/groups too?

Don't be daft!

LilyBartsHatShop · 23/08/2024 13:33

BreatheAndFocus · 23/08/2024 08:21

Such a stupid comment from the judge: ”But Justice Robert Bromwich said in his decision on Friday that case law has consistently found sex is “changeable and not necessarily binary”, “

Sex isn’t changeable, and if it’s not binary, then what’s the third sex, eh? 🙄 These people know they’re talking crap, but they’re so blinded by the good feelz they get from ‘being kind’, that they’re falling over themselves to out-drivel each other.

If Sal loses higher up, she just has to set up an app with a carefully worded qualifying thing that excludes men determined to bully and oppress women. For women AFAB and confirmed at puberty (yes, yes, I know it’s their daft language)?

That wouldn't be legal.

Lesfest were prevented from advertising their festival for "female born lesbian women only" in 2003. They chose to go with making it a private invite event, rather than challenge the ruling. Which made sense to me at the time but now I think, I wish someone had had the foresight to appeal.
Gillard's 2013 changes to the Sex Discrimination Act didn't make as much of a difference as is being suggested here.
https://brian.carnell.com/articles/2003/debate-over-female-born-lesbians-in-australia/
I apologise for the dull misogyny evident in this bloke's blog post, but it does highlight that Australian courts, in 2003, were already ruling in line with the following:
"... under Australian common law,

  • sex is not immutable;
  • a transsexual person's sex, following hormones and surgery, is their affirmed sex;
  • the law should be consistent in this regard; and
  • the meaning of "woman" is its ordinary, contemporary meaning"
All of this came up in the current case. I'm not a lawyer and my brain melts a bit when I do my best to read judgement. And I can't find the VCAT decision (or order) that the above is referring to, despite trying.

Debate Over “Female Born” Lesbians in Australia – Brian.Carnell.Com

https://brian.carnell.com/articles/2003/debate-over-female-born-lesbians-in-australia

LilyBartsHatShop · 23/08/2024 13:35

RedToothBrush · 23/08/2024 09:27

If sex is interchangeable than a man who harassed a woman on the basis of her sex can just call himself a woman and say that others have a gender identity not aligned with their sex and therefore he's not harassing anyone on the basis of their sex.

Humpty Dumpty law.

That's exactly what is happening in Spain.
I hope it doesn't get that bad here but I don't feel optimistic tonight.

forgotmyusername1 · 23/08/2024 13:42

Was her original surname tickle I wonder?

I remember laughing along with little Britain... they got it spot on though.

I am a lady, I like lady things like puppies and kittens

Codlingmoths · 23/08/2024 13:43

I will contribute to this. Out of interest does anyone know how much if any is left of the 580k raised?
I do have a concern that while I don’t have anything against Katherine deves, I also don’t have any evidence that she is a lawyer of the calibre of Naomi Cunningham, Ben cooper, Akua reindorf. It would be devastating if this loses on the appeal.

nauticant · 23/08/2024 13:45

Before entering politics, Deves worked in marketing, as an employee for Treasury Wine Estates.[4] She studied law at University of Sydney and qualified as a lawyer in 2021.

BananaBender · 23/08/2024 13:46

@Codlingmoths On A Current Affair (ACA) tonight Sall said that its cost about AUD$1.2 million so far.

Helleofabore · 23/08/2024 13:48

BananaBender · 23/08/2024 13:46

@Codlingmoths On A Current Affair (ACA) tonight Sall said that its cost about AUD$1.2 million so far.

Was ACA giving fair coverage?

BananaBender · 23/08/2024 13:51

Helleofabore · 23/08/2024 13:48

Was ACA giving fair coverage?

Yes. They let Sall speak and say he and a man about Tickle. Tickle has an open invitation to appear on the show but didn’t appear tonight. Sall has posted the video on her Twitter/X account.

AncientAndModern1 · 23/08/2024 14:01

Angry and disappointed but not surprised. Of course the courts were going to side with a repulsive, predatory man rather than a boring old rubbish woman. Men are always more important. Patriarchy in a frock.

AncientAndModern1 · 23/08/2024 14:03

The only bright sides to this are Sall meeting her financial target to fight on and that repellent bloke crying. Cry more, you freak!

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