Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Statement on the gender critical movement and the far right

1000 replies

hellotowel · 14/08/2024 22:32

https://x.com/GCAntiFarRight/status/1823790909462602205

"We, the undersigned, are deeply disturbed that populist messages particularly targeting Muslims have gained traction among significant numbers of social media accounts associated with the gender critical movement."
Read and sign our statement below.
https://gcantifarright.wordpress.com/2024/08/13/statement-on-gc-movement-and-the-far-right/

Statement on the gender critical movement and the far right

Since the horrific murders in Southport on 29 July, the UK has seen an alarming outbreak of far-right violence, with organised gangs targeting mosques and setting fire to asylum hostels. It is clea…

https://gcantifarright.wordpress.com/2024/08/13/statement-on-gc-movement-and-the-far-right

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
AlisonDonut · 18/08/2024 22:47

BackToLurk · 18/08/2024 22:28

It’s very impressive that you got all that from the screenshots you referenced.

My original post asking about the tweets referenced the not knowing English bit and the child rapist bit.

What are you trying to infer? There is a lot going on in these cases, I like to try and parse out what it is I'm seeing. Especially when a load of stuff is being vomited out.

Dygger · 18/08/2024 22:48

Basically, do all those people who signed that letter take the view that all of us leftie, feminist women are so foolish/ wobbly/ muddle-headed/ easily influenced that (despite the fact that many of us have stood up and spoken out and lost friends and family and job prospects as a result) attending a KJK event will have us running into the arms of Tommy Robinson? What could be more condescending and head girlish than that?

TempestTost · 18/08/2024 22:58

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 17:41

I think a hell of a lot of posts on this thread are intended to halt debate.

It's very telling how much keener people are to engage in personal attacks on JCJ and so on than engage with the impact that far right discourse and ideas is having on some elements of 'GC'.

Why do we need to frame it that way?

Talk about the content. Don't point and cray that the ideas came from the wrong people.

If you tell me that some idea some GC person is talking about came from the far right, that's meaningless in itself. It's just words.

The issue is if the idea is bad. So address it on its own terms.

But without assuming stupid shit like, anyone who goes to a rally agrees with the organizers about all of his opinions. That's just not how most people operate.

HereForWomen · 18/08/2024 22:59

hellotowel · 14/08/2024 22:33
Posting this here for awareness, if anyone wants to sign this. Or, more likely, argue about it for a thousand posts while saying nothing new

Posting for awareness, or forty pages? FTFOYF

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 23:02

I think the letter was more to put clear blue water between the signatories' GC-ness for want of a better word) and the GC-ness that is being influenced by far right ideology.

The signatories are making a public statement about their views of the far right and it's influence on feminism. That's all. Making it clear where they stand on this important issue.

TempestTost · 18/08/2024 23:04

theilltemperedclavecinist · 18/08/2024 18:28

I read one of those JCJ screeds and it was quite interesting for me in that she explains how different people can arrive at the same conclusion from different political starting points. So, a second wave feminist can dislike porn because of the un-Kantian treatment of women as means not ends, while a Christian fundamentalist has...whatever their reasons are. And so forth.

What she doesn't do is explain the point of the letter and what it was supposed to achieve.

Anyone?

I mean - that's pretty much the same reason a Christian fundamentalist would give, although probably using different language.

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 23:04

TempestTost · 18/08/2024 22:58

Why do we need to frame it that way?

Talk about the content. Don't point and cray that the ideas came from the wrong people.

If you tell me that some idea some GC person is talking about came from the far right, that's meaningless in itself. It's just words.

The issue is if the idea is bad. So address it on its own terms.

But without assuming stupid shit like, anyone who goes to a rally agrees with the organizers about all of his opinions. That's just not how most people operate.

But I haven't done any if that. I've said not one word about attending Yaxley-Lennon marches, other than that they were well attended with no or almost no arreats.

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 23:06

TempestTost · 18/08/2024 23:04

I mean - that's pretty much the same reason a Christian fundamentalist would give, although probably using different language.

See the post above yours and several others on this thread.

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 23:08

Sorry (again). That was in response to the "why was the letter written'? Post

Dygger · 18/08/2024 23:08

Oh well, that's put the world to rights then, hasn't it? I know at least 20 of the signatories through various groups I belong to. Three of them are friends. Two of them old friends. I don't know which of us will be more embarrassed when we next meet. I guess I'll be embarrassed for them.

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 23:10

I know quite a few of the signatories too. No idea why I would feel embarrassed for them. The letter makes important points.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:15

And that has what to do with supposed two-tier policing, or Muslim men being 'spared jail', or are you just deliberately muddying the water?

The fact that you were so quick to jump in with this makes it clear that you do understand the point being made, you're just too tribal and intellectually dishonest to acknowledge it.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:18

It's very telling how much keener people are to engage in personal attacks on JCJ and so on than engage with the impact that far right discourse and ideas is having on some elements of 'GC'.

Just perhaps they don't think JCJ brings much to the party.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:20

But there are regularly threads here where people say that women with particular opinions are therefore completely excluded from feminist discourse. I've seen more than one person say that to be a feminist requires accepting the academic model of "patriarchy;" that women who think men and women have biologically based behaviour or mental or emotional differences can't be feminists because they are sex essentialists; that if they support any restrictions on abortion they aren't feminists; that if they think that talking about whether political policy should be looking at ways to support mothers to stay with their young children rather than be pushed into employment through emphasis on state childcare as a solution; and other similar examples.

These women should of course be expected to benefit from the right-minded progressive left policies, and presumably realize their foolishness, but what isn't acceptable is to look at them as having just as much to say within a feminist or woman centered discourse.

Yes, I agree.

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 23:23

How would they know? Very few MN posters bother to read her stuff (I know, words!) but seems to get a lot of pleasure out of making personal attacks.

Anything other than engage with the far right influence on some 'GC' people

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:26

They'd know, I imagine, because people share or used to share her pearls of wisdom on social media.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:28

You seem quite invested in the cause of Jane Clare Jones' public image @Trumpetoftheswan2

TempestTost · 18/08/2024 23:30

OodleDoodleTwonk · 18/08/2024 22:40

Well said @InWithPeaceOutWithStress

It’s upsetting to see “women wearing the veil is offensive” posted with so little challenge in a purportedly feminist space.

Why is that upsetting?

I don't especially agree with it, but upsetting?

I can see why someone might make the argument it's basically anti-woman. I also can see why someone might say it's important to allow women to wear what they want, or even that it's meant to protect women.

None of these are upsetting though.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:33

Yes. I've seen both views from women who call themselves "feminist".

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:40

To me, as a feminist, I'm not going to celebrate anything that's sexist on behalf of a patriarchal religion. Women of course have or should have complete autonomy to do what they want in terms of veiling etc, but I don't have to like the symbolic implications of it.

GrumpyMenopausalWombWielder · 18/08/2024 23:41

This looks like a better, good faith attempt, at explaining the letter than what I've seen so far.

https://x.com/cvnerve/status/1825119140950032642?s=46

"🧵 You can amplify far right ideology without thinking yourself as far right.

But how would you know? If people call you far right you’re going to feel pretty annoyed, after all the TRAs and other far leftists have called you far right for years amirite?

1/9

Or more likely, you’ve now stopped caring about the accusations all together. Bigot, far-right, Nazi etc. It’s all been hyperbolic nonsense for so long that said words have lost all meanings. Or so it feels.

2/9

Besides, when we see far right nuts that actually do the Nazi salute etc usually just a dozen of maniacs, it’s so far removed from the thousands marching during Nazi Germany. These people can’t possibly come back, they got beaten, and they don’t have any political capital.

3/9

But then, we got riots in the UK, where drunks and agitators decided that it was a good time to lash out and start fires and even have a go at hotels with refugees staying in. You’re definitely not like them. It goes without saying that you don’t condone any of it.

4/9

Some people within the GC sphere were really upset at the whole thing, as you were, and decided to draw a line in the sand. It was important to them. It had been brewing for a while mind you. So it was the catalyst for them to want to say something about it. I get that.

5/9

Your initial response was to feel that this was some typical virtue signalling, and would achieve nothing, expect more division, and perhaps paint a target on some by association, or innuendos. And that does not sit right with you. I get that also.

6/9

Still, there is a problem. And we need to be absolutely clear as to what it is. A new religion of contrarianism on the right has emerged, partly as a reaction to the abominations of far left ideology that we all find abhorrent. And it does not know how to stop itself.

7/9

So how do you know when what you consider to be legitimate concerns around mass immigration and other faiths, like Islam, how do you know when those concerns become dysfunctional and turn you into a vector of far right anti-refugees/anti Muslims/antisemite propaganda?

8/9

That is the question I invite you to ask yourself, a question I ask myself all the time.

Because you and I are up against outrage algorithms, bad incentives, audience capture, eyeballs competition.

And it’s not clear what’s the best way to be immune against any of it.

9/9"

And one person's responses are worth adding too:

https://x.com/lethallottie/status/1825242651735499195?s=46

"It’s quite simple tbh. It’s when you oppose the excesses of the far left, the rank misogyny and racism of Islam, and how a contingent of them fundamentally do not want to adapt to western society, while not generalising or scapegoating whole swathes of law abiding people.

There is nothing far right about questioning why the police is keen to speak to women who say things on the internet, but not Muslim extremisten calling for Jihad and intifada, and the eradication of the Jewish state.

And anyone who claims it is, can get fucked."

https://x.com/lethallottie/status/1825254978383909188?s=46

"... the antifa extremists with their masks on bullying women, or Jihadis calling for the eradication of all zionists tend to give themselves away quite obviously.

Are they any different from the radar right?

They’re all just angry men to me."

https://x.com/cvnerve/status/1825256645229678634?s=46

"The thread was written in the context of the far right and its relation to the GC movement because it is easier, in my opinion, for the far right to attach itself to the GC cause than it is for the far left to do so, given the far left, is very much sold to the trans/woke cause.

That’s not to say that there is not an islamofascist threat and that there is no threat to the safety of Jewish people in the UK, because there very much is. But I can’t cover everything, and this thread, like I said, was contextual to the current discussion in the GC sphere."

https://x.com/lethallottie/status/1825257751808823599?s=46

"Fair.

But to me that isn’t really the issue at hand.
The issue is that anyone who isn’t Leftist is asked to consider their position, but the leftists are not.

I think the left has done equal if not more damage to society in the past decades. But is in stark denial of this."

It strikes me as a more honest discussion about this than I've seen anywhere else.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:44

It strikes me as a more honest discussion about this than I've seen anywhere else.

Absolutely.

TempestTost · 18/08/2024 23:46

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 18/08/2024 23:04

But I haven't done any if that. I've said not one word about attending Yaxley-Lennon marches, other than that they were well attended with no or almost no arreats.

That seems to be what has upset quite a lot of the people writing these letters, and several people here have said that anyone going to a rally like the two-tier policing thing must therefore be on board with all of TR's opinions.

That's just not how most people operate. Look at the people who ran the BLM organization - they were identitarian neo-marxists who thought that the family should be abolished. They had all kinds of views most people at the protests didn't share, that wasn't why they were there.

The two tier policing issue is interesting in that it's similar to opposition to gender ideology. It's really not attached to a particular political position, many people, often with some opposing views, and different contexts, have had bad experiences with it and want it stopped. So you will get a broad spectrum of people at such an event, with their main commonality being around one particular, concrete concern.

Actually, it strikes me that both are really in a way concerned with the influence of progressive identitarian on society. That's a huge swath. It's silly to expect them to be united in other ways.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:50

That seems to be what has upset quite a lot of the people writing these letters, and several people here have said that anyone going to a rally like the two-tier policing thing must therefore be on board with all of TR's opinions.

That's just not how most people operate. Look at the people who ran the BLM organization - they were identitarian neo-marxists who thought that the family should be abolished. They had all kinds of views most people at the protests didn't share, that wasn't why they were there.

The two tier policing issue is interesting in that it's similar to opposition to gender ideology. It's really not attached to a particular political position, many people, often with some opposing views, and different contexts, have had bad experiences with it and want it stopped. So you will get a broad spectrum of people at such an event, with their main commonality being around one particular, concrete concern.

Actually, it strikes me that both are really in a way concerned with the influence of progressive identitarian on society. That's a huge swath. It's silly to expect them to be united in other ways.

Yes! Well said.

Dygger · 18/08/2024 23:52

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/08/2024 23:18

It's very telling how much keener people are to engage in personal attacks on JCJ and so on than engage with the impact that far right discourse and ideas is having on some elements of 'GC'.

Just perhaps they don't think JCJ brings much to the party.

Well, not much that the average non-academic GC woman can understand, anyway.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.