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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Statement on the gender critical movement and the far right

1000 replies

hellotowel · 14/08/2024 22:32

https://x.com/GCAntiFarRight/status/1823790909462602205

"We, the undersigned, are deeply disturbed that populist messages particularly targeting Muslims have gained traction among significant numbers of social media accounts associated with the gender critical movement."
Read and sign our statement below.
https://gcantifarright.wordpress.com/2024/08/13/statement-on-gc-movement-and-the-far-right/

Statement on the gender critical movement and the far right

Since the horrific murders in Southport on 29 July, the UK has seen an alarming outbreak of far-right violence, with organised gangs targeting mosques and setting fire to asylum hostels. It is clea…

https://gcantifarright.wordpress.com/2024/08/13/statement-on-gc-movement-and-the-far-right

OP posts:
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34
Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 12:20

ArcheryAnnie · 16/08/2024 12:11

Discriminating against someone because of their religion is already - rightly - against the law. Banning any criticism of either a religion, or how its' adherents practice it, seems very close to reintroducing blasphemy laws, which won't fly.

Afzal Khan MP, a long-time proponent of the term, has called on the prime minister to meet with "Muslim community leaders" and formally adopt a definition of 'Islamophobia' to combat "the racism and vitriol we are seeing by a minority of far-right activists on Britain's streets".

https://www.secularism.org.uk/opinion/2024/08/defining-islamophobia-is-not-the-answer-to-combatting-anti-muslim-hate

Define Islamophobia to drive ‘racism and vitriol’ off streets, says MP

Afzal Khan has urged Sir Keir Starmer to formally adopt a definition of Islamophobia after scenes of disorder in parts of the UK.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/islamophobia-keir-starmer-labour-government-priti-patel-southport-b1174867.html

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 16/08/2024 12:22

Re: Islamic and other fundamentalism. Southall Black Sisters (founded by Pragna Patel) have been extremely vocal critics of all religious fundamentalism since the late '80s/early '90s, especially as to how it affects women and girls.

It is possible to be critical of Islam, or any other religion, without taking a stance that all men who practice that religion are a threat to the UK/'our women's/'our white girls' and so on.

In the same way that it is possible to be critical of gender ideology, without taking a stance that all trans identified men are AGPs/paedophiles/troons/blokes in dresses and so on.

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 12:23

MontagueMoo · 16/08/2024 12:18

Islamophobia is already a hate crime, and has been for some years.

No it isn't, it is covered with other religions, it is not a specific stand alone hate crime.

BackToLurk · 16/08/2024 12:28

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/08/2024 12:12

Why do you feel the need to come onto this board, though, to do that? It's clearly provocative. I'd say this board is better for engaged and in depth critical thinking, rather than dismissive moral policing. For looking into the ideas behind certain narratives.

As for those certain "narratives" - I think all narratives need to be looked at, considered and deconstructed......not just dismissed as inherently unworthy. Some of these narratives may be spoken in unvarnished, uneducated terms by unvarnished and uneducated people - but beneath all narratives there lies a value system and a set of expectations that it helps to understand.

Edited

Do you police everyone? I responded, a few pages in, to the OP. I've responded to some specific comments. Where's the policing of posters who said 'show us the tweets', then went quiet when they were shown the tweets?

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 12:28

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 16/08/2024 12:22

Re: Islamic and other fundamentalism. Southall Black Sisters (founded by Pragna Patel) have been extremely vocal critics of all religious fundamentalism since the late '80s/early '90s, especially as to how it affects women and girls.

It is possible to be critical of Islam, or any other religion, without taking a stance that all men who practice that religion are a threat to the UK/'our women's/'our white girls' and so on.

In the same way that it is possible to be critical of gender ideology, without taking a stance that all trans identified men are AGPs/paedophiles/troons/blokes in dresses and so on.

Which is exactly my view and I suspect also KJK's.

Wenzles · 16/08/2024 12:30

Looks like Joanna Cherry just sees us all as "silly school girls", I can't believe I used to support this women - her, Bindel & Duffield have been gaslighting us from the start.

Statement on the gender critical movement and the far right
BackToLurk · 16/08/2024 12:31

Shortshriftandlethal · 16/08/2024 12:17

The thing about boundaries is that when they are insecure they can be very brittle and defensive; but when operating in a more healthy way they are established around confidence. You don't need to artificially "distance" yourself from something if you don't naturally align with it in the first place.

What is it you are so keen to try to distance yourself from, and why?

Edited

What does it matter to you where my lines are drawn? On the rare occasions I got to Twitter I don't amplify some accounts because on balance I don't want to. Is that OK with you?

ScrollingLeaves · 16/08/2024 12:32

Flibflobflibflob · 16/08/2024 08:58

As a brown woman I think there is two tier policing, man attacks daughter with a metal bar for wearing make up, literally beats her unconscious. Is he prosecuted? No. He goes on a fucking parenting course. He should have received a custodial sentence and his children removed. Imam rapes a child in his care but is let off because his wife doesn’t speak english. I’ve heard several stories from women where because they were brown the abuse they received from their families was basically treated as a community issue. Women are shamed by their own communities for saying there is a problem so no-one ever says anything and the police and the CPS are complicit. Anti-racists often choose to ignore oppression of women/homophobia as it’s inconvenient to accept that it happens.

I think it’s a lot more complicated than portrayed. I would be considered a racist if I were white at this point.

What you are describing has been happening is terrible.

Have people discussed this on the MN board for Islam or would that still be unsafe and taboo?

It sounds from what you say that a lot of back-up needs to be in place like banks of female translators, female English language teachers, specialist lawyers and barristers, and re-training the CPS and police ( who already need this for dismally failing all women).

It is really important that the CPS protect all British women whatever their religion/culture/colour equally under the law. We should all be pushing for this, but to have effective influence everyone needs to know.

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 16/08/2024 12:43

Imnobody4 is that reflective of KJK's view? I thought it was all 'hold the line', 'there's no such thing as trans', 'AGPs and so on.

Iwishihadariver · 16/08/2024 12:45

Inlaw · 16/08/2024 11:32

Yeah this.

I am not bothered about this.

This constant issue being bought up is because in a number of recent popular podcasts they have been comparing the reasons why U.K. and US trans vs women’s rights have differed.

The conclusion was U.K. women made it a bipartisan issue. They didn’t try to make it left vs right (like in America). Hence UK got somewhere. America didn’t.

Don’t let these posts divide and conquer you. They don’t give a fuck about the far right. It’s not about that. It’s about you.

Yes, MN often provides perfect examples of divide and conquer in action. I think there is a mass of UK women with BunfightBetty's common-sense attitude, and perhaps many are lurking on FWR, rolling eyes and occasionally laughing whilst quietly NG-ingAF about the latest non-issue, and sticking to our guns about what does matter to us as individuals.

Having said that, I do appreciate the persistent posters (on all 'sides'), as threads like this help to keep my feet firmly on the ground lest I get ideas above my station and start to sign things.

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 12:47

Wenzles · 16/08/2024 12:30

Looks like Joanna Cherry just sees us all as "silly school girls", I can't believe I used to support this women - her, Bindel & Duffield have been gaslighting us from the start.

Had to laugh....

"Can one be a “silly schoolgirl” and a domesticated zombie at the same time? Asking for a friend."
x.com/transwidows/status/1824361929235722346?t=GE_AloMdjNX0p12OOKtwAg&s=19

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 12:50

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 16/08/2024 12:43

Imnobody4 is that reflective of KJK's view? I thought it was all 'hold the line', 'there's no such thing as trans', 'AGPs and so on.

Haven't you heard she's not keen on 'grooming gangs"

StainlessSteelMouse · 16/08/2024 12:52

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 12:47

Had to laugh....

"Can one be a “silly schoolgirl” and a domesticated zombie at the same time? Asking for a friend."
x.com/transwidows/status/1824361929235722346?t=GE_AloMdjNX0p12OOKtwAg&s=19

I will stop seeing these regular open letters as a burn book when the authors stop so closely resembling Regina George.

Brefugee · 16/08/2024 12:56

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 12:07

You do know that KS is seriously considering making Islamaphobia a hate crime. This is part of the mix. The teacher from Batley is still in hiding.

in order to make it a hate crime he's going to need to define it. Same as with transphobia if and when that comes up as a hate crime.

Then we will know for sure, one way or the other what is going on.

YellowAsteroid · 16/08/2024 13:07

What I got from it is that anyone who disagrees with KJK must be doing so because they are just jealous as all they do is fail and all KJK does is win, win, win. (Which is both excessively self-regarding, and reveals a lack of understanding about how political gains are actually made - we need all of it, the populist stuff and the quiet behind-the-scenes stuff. But she may not believe this and may just be stirring the pot, IDK any more.)

I have a lot of admiration for KJK - I remember when she posted as Posie Parker, and she popped up at the "Woman's Place is Speaking Out" meeting in Bristol back in 2018.

Her organising and her open approach has brought a huge number of women into the movement - women who had never thought about women's rights in anything more than a "Yes, we've got them" way, and who probably hadn't thought of themselves as feminists. I've heard her called the "housewives whisperer" and I think that's a slightly sarcastic but actually quite astute description.

I think her "Let Women Speak" events are amazing - they have the energy & flavour of 1970s CR groups (if you know you know) and those events are also symbolic of the huge grass roots groundswell of a resurgent feminism of sorts. But she's not a systematic feminist thinker and sometimes her drive to make a difference becomes about her winning. Easily enough done, to let your rhetoric define you.

But in that rhetoric, I think she sometimes steps over what is acceptable.

However, the history of the last 250 years of feminist thought, theory and activism (and all are necessary) there have been huge rifts, and we survive. We keep going.

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 13:31

Brefugee · 16/08/2024 12:56

in order to make it a hate crime he's going to need to define it. Same as with transphobia if and when that comes up as a hate crime.

Then we will know for sure, one way or the other what is going on.

Labour have already accepted the APPG definition.

ArcheryAnnie · 16/08/2024 13:31

I think people are entitled to draw their red lines where they want. I might amplify some women I disagree with on other issues, but I might think others are a step too far, and for me that would include antisemites. For me. I'm not fixing anyone else's boundaries.

This is where I'm at.

ArcheryAnnie · 16/08/2024 13:39

Wenzles · 16/08/2024 12:30

Looks like Joanna Cherry just sees us all as "silly school girls", I can't believe I used to support this women - her, Bindel & Duffield have been gaslighting us from the start.

Oh, come on. I wouldn't use that phrase about any woman, so I think JC is in the wrong with her phrasing there, but she's talking to KJK, not all of us.

And I have no idea what was in JC's mind when she didn't go to KJK's meeting - but it does illustrate that kJK thinks it's all about her. If you've ever worked in parliament, or with parliamentarians, or in a campaign that tries to lobby parliamentarians, you know that every bloody MP and peer is rushing from one meeting to another. You can't attend everything, and if an MP rushed past a meeting I'd arranged, I'd be more likely to assume its because they'd already a prior appointment than assume it was All About Me. (And anyway I thought we were against "she's frit" statements?)

Brefugee · 16/08/2024 13:42

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 13:31

Labour have already accepted the APPG definition.

then they will have to codify it in law. Is there support for this?

Not that i think people should be islamaphobic, and i do think that a hate-element to crime should be acknowledged and duly punished, but there is nuance in most crimes that strict definitions don't help.

StainlessSteelMouse · 16/08/2024 13:48

Sure, anyone who knows Parliament knows the constraints on time, and if you ever try to organise something there, you'll always have sympathetic MPs or peers who can't make it.

And yes, KJK can be just a bit egocentric. I think you need to be to do what she does.

But didn't any of these highly educated women learn from "basket of deplorables"?

Well, I suppose not. There was "domesticated zombie", and then there was the infamous "pound shop Le Pen", which told us not very much about KJK, but a lot about how Sarah Ditum views women who use pound shops.

I'd expect better from JC, who as a very experienced lawyer should be conscious of how her words land.

PriOn1 · 16/08/2024 13:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/08/2024 11:14

So I have seen women on Twitter saying that some aspects of what is happening in the UK in relation to Islam concerns them.

It's quite telling how @Flibflobflibflob's post on this thread has been ignored. She hasn't been shouted down, because I'm sure certain people realise the optics on that. But she hasn't been engaged with either.

Thank you for pointing out @Flibflobflibflob‘s post, which I somehow missed.

That is exactly the kind of information I have seen and heard before and I do believe there is a significant problem in the UK regarding the way different groups and crimes are policed and prosecuted.

timenowplease · 16/08/2024 14:00

Brefugee · 16/08/2024 11:11

i CBA to watch/listen to videos (by anyone)
Is there a tl;dr?

That's a shame, you're missing a treat.

I'm 15mins in and it's vivifying to say the least.

DerekFaker · 16/08/2024 14:12

Trumpetoftheswan2 · 15/08/2024 18:46

Well, quite. Any hint of racism or the far right and KJK's supporters think it's about her. I wonder if her welcoming the far right when they were filming the Brighton LWS event under the rubric of 'everyone's welcome' is a factor in this?

Edited

Well, this is disingenuous bullshit. She didn't even know who they were at the time!

Imnobody4 · 16/08/2024 14:12

I think KJK is actually quite hurt. She's really been out there doing initiative things, starting with billboards, police investigations, LWS etc and all she gets is criticism and sneers. She has ideas and makes them happen.
Yes she occasionally sails close to the edge but I admire her guts and resilience. I suspect history will give her more credit than JCJ.

timenowplease · 16/08/2024 14:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/08/2024 11:31

Yes, absolutely agree on this.

Have either of you done that in public? Criticize Islam I mean?

You definitely can't do it on these boards.

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