Imane Khelif

[LHayday]

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

I doubt that he went through a normal female puberty, given that he has no breasts, is very muscular and has a male face.

You have made a false assertion about something I have said, and honestly, this just happens time and time and time again.

And it's just, why would anyone bother, really, with pointing out the lies? It's absolutely tiresome. And really I'm not up for more, I need some sleep before work.

You used the words "You declare... "and then put a load of words down, and an assertion that I had never made.

I'm surprised you don't take that more seriously and you are still not taking responsibility for that.

I can not possibly know, and neither can you, the history of Imane's puberty or lack of it, their understanding of their experiences, the relevance of sport in their life to puberty etc etc.

It is not dishonest to acknowledge this lack of knowledge.

It is dishonest to draw conclusions when you do not have the requisite knowledge.

Actually, the first we heard of it was through Redux, which is not a tabloid and made no distinction about anything but that the IBA said these were male athletes.

https://reduxx.info/breaking-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes/

Most posters were not making the assumption that these boxers were trans but were saying it is highly likely that they were males with DSDs, like Semenya.

And remember, there was Lin as well.

And yet, the IBA tested twice. They stated very clearly that these boxers were male.

“It is not dishonest to acknowledge this lack of knowledge.”

“It is dishonest to draw conclusions when you do not have the requisite knowledge.”

You can keep doubling down on there being no evidence, but it really isn’t convincing. The evidence is there. You, personally, are choosing to ignore it. I believe that fits the description of ‘dishonest’.

Whether you ignore it or not, doesn’t mean they are not accurate tests.

And also there is the tests mentioned by the coach done by a named endocrinologist. Want to deny that happened as well?

And, you declared that a reason that a person didn’t start menstruating was due to intense sport. Whether I say ‘suggest’ or ‘declare’, it refers to you making that statement.

You have agreed you made the statement.

I don’t agree that my pointing out the false premise of your statement was me lying.

Normal in the sense she had a vulva/vagina and these grew up as a woman would. why do you think differently?

But she is just a masculine looking woman? This is very unfair.

On twitter the conversation is around the overlap. Those upper green dots are women, with a genetic advantage, and still women. Remembering that the Olympics are the place for 'excellence' in terms of athletic ability and not for ordinary.

Well done Imane, she is the winning athlete.

https://x.com/TheRabbitHole84/status/1821168963532788179/photo/1

Where did you get that evidence from?

The IBA tests indicate that this athlete is male. The WBO and the EBC agree after also seeing the two tests, each from different ISO accredited labs. The outcome
of the tests have also indicated that both boxers have experienced male puberty.

What part of that do you want to continue to ignore?

I agree with you. It's a constant here, please don't waste your time or any emotion on these posts.

They are not reflective of the many users on this platform - Quite often threads are taken down because the comments go against T+C.

When will this madness end?

Please make it stop.

Yes. Most MNers agree that these boxers should have been excluded because they were male. All the threads that had polls agreed with this.

And you are right, from the past 8 or so threads about this topic, the posts that have overwhelmingly been deleted are those supporting male inclusion in a female boxing competition. Because they have resorted to abuse when people disagree that any male should be included in female sports when they have been assessed to have male pubertal advantage. it is remarkable.

Nope it doesn't https://eu.usatoday.com/story/life/health-wellness/2024/08/09/imane-khelif-olympics-transvestigations/74721372007/

"I’m pretty sure she had no idea she was ‘male’. She was born with a vulva/vagina and and went through normal female puberty and was obviously very good at her sport. It’s possible some ‘non traditional’ women on here might not realise they are xy. Are you now men?"

People with XY chromosome do not, ever, go through a "normal female puberty", because they are not female. They are male.
This person clearly did not go through female puberty, it is obvious to anyone with eyes and a brain.
TWO labs ran karyotype tests which revealed XY chromosomes. This person's own coach has been quoted as saying it is a chromosome problem. This person has in fact never said they have XX chromosomes and offered the proof (because they know there IS no proof of that).

She is NOT a "masculine looking woman", this is an person with XY chromosomes.
Male at the genetic level.

And if you think not wanting to see a woman get punched in the head by a male (who have 162% more punching power than a female at the same weight as them), is "bullying", then you need to give your head a fucking wobble.

The problem is that humanity places too much value on superficial achievements like chucking males into the moon, and not enough on uplifting all of us in society to live our best lives on the principles of equality and fairness.

"Alyssa Goldberg is a writer and photographer based in New York. She holds a master's degree in Media, Medicine, and Health from Harvard Medical School and a bachelor's degree in Global Public Health and Applied Psychology from New York University." Oh dear.

Nope, I'm not agreeing with you HelleB'

I agree with those that are calling out this transphobic current that is a constant in MN.

The lawsuit raised by IK will provide even greater language, education and public attention on gender.

Given yesterdays headlines (50 women killed by male violence) let's be clear - boxing is a high impact athletic sport. It's not an act of violence nor can be likened to domestic v.

1. There is distinct evidence that Imane and Lin are male. For example neither have evidence of something called a carrying angle at their elbows which is a skeletal formation that is unique to females. This and other markers (lack of breast tissue, square jaw, and over developed upper body musculature) indicates there is a possibility that they have XY chromosomes and have a DSD disorder and went through a male puberty.
2. Even if they are male (XY) they would have been eligible under IOC rules to still participate in the women’s competition as they go by gender (what’s on your passport) rather than sex. This is wrong for any contact sport and is worth being angry about.
3. There is evidence to show by the way of a signed letter they received from the IBA that both athletes knew that they were male and chose to compete in the Olympics. Therefore they and their team knew that they would be under this level of scrutiny and had a chance to prepare for it.

I personally hope that the IOC is sued by the female boxers for putting them at huge risk of harm by not doing their due diligence around allowing males into contact sports.

@LHayday

Are you here to engage in discussion or is this one of 'those' threads....

Umm.

You know that Khelif and Lin were tested by the IBA and found to be male with male pubertal advantage, don’t you? They are both male people with XY genotype and with DSDs that allow their bodies to process the testosterone produced.

And no, there is no overlap between female people ‘with high testosterone’ and male ranges.

“However, research shows many women assigned female at birth also have high testosterone levels. For example, 8 to 18% of reproductive-aged women are affected by polycystic ovarian syndrome, an endocrine condition in which a woman’s ovaries and/or adrenal glands overproduce male sex hormones called androgen”

Healthy female people without conditions such as PCOS produce up to 2.5 nmol/L, with conditions such as PCOS testosterone is up to 5.5 nmol/L. The healthy male range starts at 7.5 nmol/L but goes to above 25. Caster Semenya, one of the last athletes the media tried to convince us was a female with naturally ‘high testosterone’ had levels around 21 nmol/L.

If you trust this article, you might need to do some further research.

Accusations of "transphobic" are so passé. What's next, calling us misandrists? Be more precise in your complaints, please.

Neither of these male boxers are trans.

Your accusation of transphobia is not founded and it is also not relevant to this discussion. From reading that article, it seems that it is you who needs education around this issue.

Not trans, not women with PCOS, not Swyers, not CAIS.

I wonder what desperate suggestion will be made next!

I can't believe the number of people who have come on here to re-state things that have been discussed and refuted what seems like a trillion times on other threads. Which they clearly haven't read. Obviously if they have read things on other threads and don't agree with them, that's different, but this is just a new thread full of stale old stuff. Try to keep up with the story, because things have moved on a lot since the 'is she/isn't she/it's all speculation and bullying.'
We're way past speculation: we now have evidence from a highly-qualified member of Khelif's training staff.

The watershed moment was the publication on 8th August of an interview in Le Point magazine with Georges Cazorla, a biologist and sports scientist, who let the cat out of the bag by admitting that the IBA [yes, a dodgy organisation, that's not in question but irrelevant] tests HAD revealed 'a problem with her chromosomes' which was devasting to Khelif because it meant that she 'might not be a girl' - in other words, that XY chromosomes instead of XX.

His reaction was not to question the tests, or criticise the IBA, or go through with an appeal, instead he says:
'All the people who liked her, including me, went to help cheer her up'.
and then, revealing the motive behind all this:
'The prospect of the Olympics helped put it all back together'

In other words, Khelif's entourage acknowledged that he had XY chromosomes, and was therefore male, but deliberately ignored it to keep the intense, multinational, no-expense-spared, and no-holds-barred medal-winning machine running at full speed.

Assuming that posters are interested in facts, I strongly suggest reading this interview which is direct speech from a Khelif insider:
2024 Olympics : « Imane Khelif was devastated to discover out of the blue that she might not be a girl ! » (lepoint.fr)

That article is a pile of unresearched tripe that makes sweeping statements without any actual scientific weight to back it up.
Most of it is about trans people, which is totally irrelevant in this instance, mixed in with a healthy dose of misogyny (women with PCOS have high testosterone toooooooooooooo!!!!).
Garbage.