Imane Khelif

[LHayday]

Just reading the thread on here for the first time. What I fail to understand is why so many contributors are so desperate for her to be a man. Someone who has lived their entire life as a woman. Beggars belief.

You want proof that he is man?

you could review the reams of evidence from the IOC, his coach, his competitors and the IBA, or you could just open your eyes and look at him. He’s the blokeiest of blokey males!

im not even discussing this nonsense anymore.

You can wait all you like. It's not a gotcha.

I've talked often on here about a friend who is regularly abused for a being trans woman. Even though she has given birth to 3 children. But sure, women just know

What IOC evidence? Seriously!

Mumsnet: "No one can change sex. It's what they are at birth that counts"
Others: "What what about people with DSD?"
Mumsnet: "Such a small percentage so they don't count, it's what someone is at birth that counts"

You start from a place of total inaccuracy. Literally no one has said this. All DSDs are one sex or the other. People advocate that people's actual sex is what's important.

you could review the reams of evidence from the IOC

Reams? What the hell are you talking about?

They think we are lying/being mean when we say it’s bloody obvious that Semenya and Khelif are male. But to us, it is!

like another poster I recall there are a number of studies that show that females (including infants) are significantly better at identifying sex than males. As I said up thread our survival is predicated on it.

So if think there is truth in your statement that many men actually can’t tell visually. It doesn’t explain their dismissal of the evidence, but perhaps it genuinely isn’t clear to them.

it would also explain all those hairy oagres with hands like shovels believing they pass.

Its clear that you are unable to understand the argument out forward by GC people on this board.

Those activists that say that sex is a spectrum and you can't tell who is male and female use people with DSD's as an attempted gotcha. They say that those with DSDs are not male or female but some kind of third intersex category.

Those that understand biology say DSDs are no proof that sex is a spectrum and that everyone is either male or female including those with DSDs.

Those that understand biology recognise that for a small percentage of people with DSDs it may be quite complex to determine their sex. They also state that those tiny number of individuals whose sex is difficult to determine as no bearing on how easy it is to determine the sex of 99.9% of the population who do not have a DSD.

The ONLY, literally the ONLY time someone's chromosomes, presence or absence of functional sry gene and testosterone response is of any relevance to the public (and even then, shocking that it should get to the point where it's in the public eye- should be properly dealt with in private for the dignity of the athlete), is when someone with male advantage attempts to participate in a sporting category reserved for females.

At that point, the onus should be on the athlete to demonstrate that they qualify for the category. This isn't hard - can you tell me about another sporting category where we say "oh go on then"?

The acceptance of a passport marker as eligibility was an explicit statement that the IOC were absolutely cool about unfair competition because:

a) Many, many countries in the world now allow this marker to be changed so it means precisely nothing about sex
b) People with DSDs that would disqualify them from entry to female competition based on their sex are likely to have had the wrong marker on their birth certificate and hence passport.

The IOC have made an absolute pigs ear of this, brought the organisation into disrepute, exposed two athletes to unbearable scrutiny, potentially cheated six other athletes from getting the Olympic medals they were entitled to.

But hey, NBD, it's just a contact sport where the difference between male and female performance is a safety as well as a fairness issue. No harm in putting inclusion before safety.

you must know your position is shit when you have to selectively quote.

as my statement makes clear - if you can read more than 10 words at a time - there is a lot of evidence which is made up from multiple sources.

one very significant piece of evidence is the statement by the IOC which was very quickly withdrawn, stating “this is not a DSD case”. It was quickly withdrawn and replaced with the statement “this is not a transgender case”.

as a lawyer who spends many hours every week advising on the legalities of appropriate external messaging I will guarantee you that - unless the IOC have the worlds most incompetent legal advisors - this means it absolutely is a DSD case

Its clear that you are unable to understand what I am saying.

That as things stand it is ALL conjecture. There have been no test results released. We do not know what tests were undertaken. We don't know her karyotype status.

We. Don't. Know.

We do. That you choose to ignore the evidence is on you

Why are some people so keen for this person to be female?

I will try to stick to words of one syllable.

All your "evidence" adding together is all conjecture. You don't know. I don't know. A corrected statement is, again, conjecture.

As you are a legal expert in this area, you really should have a better understanding of fact vs opinion.

One of my kids has acquired chimerism.

But it has fuck all to do with sex testing for sports categories.

Yes I think we all know that.

What else is involved in these 'reams'?

Some of us are keen that someone isn't ripped apart without any facts. That they wait until the actual facts are known. That is very far from the same as being desperate for them to be female.

This country is literally burning because people no longer wait for facts. They just believe everything some random on the internet says.

Its very inconvenient for people to accept that GC concerns are related to men in women's spaces and its nothing to do with whether those men identify as trans or not.

Here's what was reported to have been seen by US sports journalist Alan Abrahamson regarding the test results claimed by the IBA. So this appears to have been what's been leaked.

https://www.3wiresports.com/articles/2024/8/5/fa9lt6ypbwx5su3z20xxnfzgtao0gy

That's not "conjecture". You can choose not to believe this (well-respected sports) journalist's claim of what they've seen, I guess, but it isn't conjecture. Do you have evidence that this journalist is an unreliable source?

The translated interview with the trainer does indeed mention karyotype, so again, not "conjecture" or invented. He says that Khelif is a woman, claiming the endocrinologist said this "despite her karyotype and testosterone levels". So yes, he did say Khelif had a male karyotype. Claiming he didn't is false.

@JusteanBiscuits do you still believe that Caster Semanya is female?

No but I do believe Caster was treated utterly abysmally.

is your position that “facts” and “evidence” are synonymous?

And that a statement by the IOC is “conjecture”?

I know you likely belong to the group of people that think words mean whatever you say they do, but you might find putting your case across easier if you took your own advice and used words that you actually understood

Hilarious 🤣

By who? The IOC, world athletics or women who complained?

Lol, what???

Now I know you're just a troll.

But in this case, nobody's "believing what some random said on the internet" are they? There's pretty good reason to believe that Khelif is male, from the evidence presented thus far including that he withdrew his challenge to the IBA, the comments of various parties who have been involved with Khelif, along with our knowledge of DSDs.

Why are you so desperate to downplay this? Nobody has been "ripped apart without any facts". At all. What a ridiculous claim to make.

I don't think fairness is high on your list of concerns at all. Some of us see your multiple posts telling us nasty wimms off as highly disingenuous.