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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My daughter wants to be "they/them."

99 replies

XChrome · 13/08/2024 01:12

So my daughter just asked me that if I can try to remember to please refer to her as they/them. I asked her why and she could not explain. I told her it's going to be hard to remember if I don't understand why I'm doing it. She said she can't even really explain it to herself.
She is neurdivergent, as am I.
I'm going to try to remember to do it, just to make her feel better.
Are there any opinions on whether this is the best way to handle it?
She knows I'm GC and is uncomfortable with that.
I just don't get it.

OP posts:
dunBle · 13/08/2024 01:21

To be honest, I wouldn't bother trying to remember until she can explain it. She's expecting you to take on additional cognitive load without any explanation beyond she wants you to, and that's unreasonable.

HeddaGarbled · 13/08/2024 01:21

I’d just use her name. I can’t think of many situations where you’d have to use she/her/they/them within her hearing.

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 13/08/2024 01:26

Most teenagers just need some space to figure things out. The less pressure on this, in my opinion, the better. Most kids figure stuff out and aren't actually having gender dysphoria and they find a way to be themselves and be comfortable.
I would say just use their name if you aren't happy using they/them and keep communication open. That way they know you are a source of support, not conflict and you can keep having conversations.

Hisapsy · 13/08/2024 01:26

Well, when you are speaking to her, you won’t need to use 3rd person pronouns. You’ll be using “you, you, yours”. Just make sure she never overhears you talking to anyone about her and you won’t have to say “they” at all.

Just say you’ll use her pronouns and then say no more about it. Talking about it causes further problems.

There was a girl in my dd’s year who decided that she would become he. All the girls and the parents used “he” for this girl, no drama. She grew out of it 2 years later.

LiterallyOnFire · 13/08/2024 01:32

Hisapsy · 13/08/2024 01:26

Well, when you are speaking to her, you won’t need to use 3rd person pronouns. You’ll be using “you, you, yours”. Just make sure she never overhears you talking to anyone about her and you won’t have to say “they” at all.

Just say you’ll use her pronouns and then say no more about it. Talking about it causes further problems.

There was a girl in my dd’s year who decided that she would become he. All the girls and the parents used “he” for this girl, no drama. She grew out of it 2 years later.

This.

All this energy they all spend trying dictate how they're discussed when they're not there.

But, yes, I think it needs a bit of a "smile and nod" approach. Knowing your GC status might be part of the attraction. So try not to react much at all.

XChrome · 13/08/2024 01:50

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 13/08/2024 01:26

Most teenagers just need some space to figure things out. The less pressure on this, in my opinion, the better. Most kids figure stuff out and aren't actually having gender dysphoria and they find a way to be themselves and be comfortable.
I would say just use their name if you aren't happy using they/them and keep communication open. That way they know you are a source of support, not conflict and you can keep having conversations.

She's in her 30s, actually. So it's not a teenage angst thing.
Yes, I will mostly be using her name. Today I was talking to somebody about her and said "she" which is what brought it up.

OP posts:
XChrome · 13/08/2024 01:55

Hisapsy · 13/08/2024 01:26

Well, when you are speaking to her, you won’t need to use 3rd person pronouns. You’ll be using “you, you, yours”. Just make sure she never overhears you talking to anyone about her and you won’t have to say “they” at all.

Just say you’ll use her pronouns and then say no more about it. Talking about it causes further problems.

There was a girl in my dd’s year who decided that she would become he. All the girls and the parents used “he” for this girl, no drama. She grew out of it 2 years later.

It's difficult to avoid it when you're living in the same house. I do occasionally talk about her on the phone to other relatives who ask about her and sometimes the neighbours ask about her as well. I guess I'll be saying she if she is not around to hear me, otherwise it's they. My relatives will be confused, but there's not much I can do about that.

OP posts:
Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 13/08/2024 02:24

XChrome · 13/08/2024 01:50

She's in her 30s, actually. So it's not a teenage angst thing.
Yes, I will mostly be using her name. Today I was talking to somebody about her and said "she" which is what brought it up.

Ah, sorry I should have asked :(
I think my advice still works but I get that it's more complicated now, apologies for assuming

Crouton19 · 13/08/2024 02:29

If she is in her 30s, this could be the first step to becoming he/him. My brother started off with they/them before swiftly moving to she/her. He was 36. There isn't much support for parents of adult transitioners but the Gender Dysphoria Support Network might be a place to start.

https://genderdysphoriasupportnetwork.com/

Gender Dysphoria Support Network - supported by Genspect

The Gender Dysphoria Support Network (GDSN) offers support to families of individuals affected by gender dysphoria. The GDSN offers regular online emotional support, allowing sharing of experiences in order to resolve common challenges. We provide unde...

https://genderdysphoriasupportnetwork.com

XChrome · 13/08/2024 03:49

Crouton19 · 13/08/2024 02:29

If she is in her 30s, this could be the first step to becoming he/him. My brother started off with they/them before swiftly moving to she/her. He was 36. There isn't much support for parents of adult transitioners but the Gender Dysphoria Support Network might be a place to start.

https://genderdysphoriasupportnetwork.com/

Thank you for that. I am thinking it is gender dysphoria, possibly related to being on the spectrum, a lesbian and having contact with trans rights activists online. Perhaps she's confused about who she is and is trying to find herself.

OP posts:
knittingandminim · 13/08/2024 04:14

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knittingandminim · 13/08/2024 04:15

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ukvisitor · 13/08/2024 04:19

I am nonbinary, biologically female and, when asked my preference, I go by they/them pronouns. I'm also in my mid-late twenties, and autistic.

I came out as nonbinary to my DM ten years ago now, and while she tried at first to use my chosen pronouns she soon slipped back into she/her. While it occasionally makes me uncomfortable, I don't think it's a bad thing or hold any resentment towards her for it; she'd known me and referred to me as she/her for sixteen years before I came out. I know and trust that she never says anything out of malice. If anything I view it as something special to us and our close family, like a childhood nickname. It's not something I like to go by all the time, and outside of our family it would make me extremely uncomfortable, but it's ours, and even moreso it's hers.

Obviously I have no idea how your DC will view the issue, but I'd like to think it'd be with grace and compassion. My only advice is to give it time. It took a while after I came out for me to be confident enough in myself to be able to brush off the small things that made me uncomfortable, but I got there. Most of my trans and nonbinary friends are in similar positions, when we've discussed it. I agree with PPs that using your DC's name is a good middle-ground, if they can't agree to disagree on this right now.

I hope things go well with both you and your DC!

Littlepinkstarsbyradish · 13/08/2024 05:20

XChrome · 13/08/2024 03:49

Thank you for that. I am thinking it is gender dysphoria, possibly related to being on the spectrum, a lesbian and having contact with trans rights activists online. Perhaps she's confused about who she is and is trying to find herself.

Ultimately you might never understand it, but if your child is saying this to you and asking for you to refer to them in a certain way then I'd try my hardest to meet those requests. Ideological debates can happen later or elsewhere, I'm sure you want them to know first and foremost that you love and respect them. In depth chats can happen later if its a real issue, but for now I'd take the lead from them and listen to how they're feeling. I'd also feel really happy that they knew they could say this to you? Right?? Not every parent has that level of trust, they must feel they can trust you and that's a massive achievement as a parent :)

backinthebox · 13/08/2024 05:27

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Try reading the eloquent post immediately below yours.

I have trouble myself understanding the concept of non-binary as applied to gender, as an identity it relies on the putting of everyone else into ‘binary’ gender pigeonholes in order that the non-binary can consider themselves outside of this binary, and I don’t think a lot of people would be happy to have a gender label pinned on them if they prefer to define themselves by biological sex. There’s a difference of opinion between many a non-binary person and their family, but I’m pretty sure things go much better for both parent and child where they are able to have an adult and empathetic conversation about it rather than the ridiculous and frankly juvenile ‘capitulate, or your child will never speak to you again!’ drama that is often spouted.

Arunat · 13/08/2024 05:54

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There has been enormous change in the last 30 years and it's reasonable to assume this will continue. I don't think you are in a position to know how the next 30 years of this relationship will go.

Family members often love and support each other despite real or perceived imperfections.
People don't always choose to conform to peer/societal pressure to ostracise individuals based on their characteristics, beliefs or behaviours. OPs child may be a kind, tolerant person with loving family relationships.
Your post sounds as if you wish them harm.

(To be clear by them in my last sentence I mean OPs child).

Thesquarerootofnotgivingafuck · 13/08/2024 05:56

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What a spiteful thing to say to someone who is asking for help. "Comply or you'll die alone" makes you sound hysterical, especially coming back to post it straight after calling op bigoted, didn't think your first attempt was insulting enough?
I have a DD who uses they them pronouns and in spite of the fact that I frequently get it wrong our relationship is still going strong because not all non binary people are as deranged as you.

VisitationRights · 13/08/2024 06:15

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Try not to let your own trauma guide you when responding to someone looking for help. Your bitterness and anger are shining through. Maybe work on your issues instead of answering posts on Mumsnet.

perfectstorm · 13/08/2024 07:09

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Oh, grow up.

Human relationships are complicated and so are human beliefs, and your rigid and doctrinaire conviction that you have the right to compel the speech of those around you, and even those you are unlikely ever to meet, makes you sound like a toddler who wants her crusts cut off. The hysterical, hyperbolic threats you have resorted to just make you sound unhinged. As someone who has gone NC with parents for exceedingly good reason, your dramatics are especially tiresome. If only my reasons were so trivial. 🙄

OP, keep talking, and trying to understand her perspective. I'm sure you already are assuring her that she is completely loved, no matter what. This is so hard for autistic young women - who does identify with rigid, sexist gender roles, after all? - and I can sympathise with the longing to escape the misogyny of the world, though sad that people currently feel they can't embrace androgyny while also accepting the fact of their sexed bodies. The main thing has to be the communication, and the belief that she's accepted unequivocally and with love, and that she knows that your focus and priority is her wellbeing.

BreatheAndFocus · 13/08/2024 07:56

I wouldn’t make a big thing of it, but I’d talk and listen to her, gently steering the conversation towards stereotypes (and how we thought we’d escaped them decades ago 😌). I’d also tell her that ‘gender issues’ are particularly common in homosexual and bisexual people, and that what she’s feeling is normal and doesn’t mean there’s something wrong. Talk generally about confidence and comfort, and make sure you give her ample praise (about everything).

I’d also tactfully point out that changing pronouns doesn’t change how people perceive you, so she’d only be doing it because she herself believes in stereotypes. Ask her if she thinks the many, many ‘shes’ subscribe to stereotypes about women.

I’d also carefully listen/chat to her to see if anything is upsetting or stressing her.

XChrome · 13/08/2024 17:35

ukvisitor · 13/08/2024 04:19

I am nonbinary, biologically female and, when asked my preference, I go by they/them pronouns. I'm also in my mid-late twenties, and autistic.

I came out as nonbinary to my DM ten years ago now, and while she tried at first to use my chosen pronouns she soon slipped back into she/her. While it occasionally makes me uncomfortable, I don't think it's a bad thing or hold any resentment towards her for it; she'd known me and referred to me as she/her for sixteen years before I came out. I know and trust that she never says anything out of malice. If anything I view it as something special to us and our close family, like a childhood nickname. It's not something I like to go by all the time, and outside of our family it would make me extremely uncomfortable, but it's ours, and even moreso it's hers.

Obviously I have no idea how your DC will view the issue, but I'd like to think it'd be with grace and compassion. My only advice is to give it time. It took a while after I came out for me to be confident enough in myself to be able to brush off the small things that made me uncomfortable, but I got there. Most of my trans and nonbinary friends are in similar positions, when we've discussed it. I agree with PPs that using your DC's name is a good middle-ground, if they can't agree to disagree on this right now.

I hope things go well with both you and your DC!

Thank you for that. Yes, my daughter acknowledged that she knows I will forget sometimes and will not hold it against me. We have an excellent relationship and she's very understanding of my many senior moments.
It sounds like you and your mom have a great relationship too.

OP posts:
XChrome · 13/08/2024 17:41

BreatheAndFocus · 13/08/2024 07:56

I wouldn’t make a big thing of it, but I’d talk and listen to her, gently steering the conversation towards stereotypes (and how we thought we’d escaped them decades ago 😌). I’d also tell her that ‘gender issues’ are particularly common in homosexual and bisexual people, and that what she’s feeling is normal and doesn’t mean there’s something wrong. Talk generally about confidence and comfort, and make sure you give her ample praise (about everything).

I’d also tactfully point out that changing pronouns doesn’t change how people perceive you, so she’d only be doing it because she herself believes in stereotypes. Ask her if she thinks the many, many ‘shes’ subscribe to stereotypes about women.

I’d also carefully listen/chat to her to see if anything is upsetting or stressing her.

Edited

I did ask her if she wasn't proud to be known as she. She said she is and that she doesn't believe in stereotypes. So I don't think that's it.
It may be related to leftover trauma from her asshole so-called father (my ex, thankfully) treating me like shit. Maybe she thinks being a woman leads to being treated like shit by men, so she's afraid of it. She's not wrong about that, so I can see why she'd take refuge in being non-binary.

OP posts:
SpanielintheWorks · 13/08/2024 17:42

I am nonbinary, biologically female and, when asked my preference, I go by they/them pronouns.

Why, though? You recognise that you are female, and so does your mum (obviously), and so, I would guess, do most people who meet you. I do sympathise with wanting neutral interactions with people who don't need to know your sex (I have a handily neutral name and take advantage of it sometimes to avoid sexism) -- but what on earth is improved by asking for neutral pronouns from those who can see/hear/remember that you're female? It all seems so very pointless.

XChrome · 13/08/2024 17:44

perfectstorm · 13/08/2024 07:09

Oh, grow up.

Human relationships are complicated and so are human beliefs, and your rigid and doctrinaire conviction that you have the right to compel the speech of those around you, and even those you are unlikely ever to meet, makes you sound like a toddler who wants her crusts cut off. The hysterical, hyperbolic threats you have resorted to just make you sound unhinged. As someone who has gone NC with parents for exceedingly good reason, your dramatics are especially tiresome. If only my reasons were so trivial. 🙄

OP, keep talking, and trying to understand her perspective. I'm sure you already are assuring her that she is completely loved, no matter what. This is so hard for autistic young women - who does identify with rigid, sexist gender roles, after all? - and I can sympathise with the longing to escape the misogyny of the world, though sad that people currently feel they can't embrace androgyny while also accepting the fact of their sexed bodies. The main thing has to be the communication, and the belief that she's accepted unequivocally and with love, and that she knows that your focus and priority is her wellbeing.

Threats? Wtf. I'm glad that post was deleted before I saw it. Thank you very much for your support.
Yes, DD definitely knows she is beloved and that she can talk to me about anything. 🙂

OP posts:
XChrome · 13/08/2024 17:46

Thesquarerootofnotgivingafuck · 13/08/2024 05:56

What a spiteful thing to say to someone who is asking for help. "Comply or you'll die alone" makes you sound hysterical, especially coming back to post it straight after calling op bigoted, didn't think your first attempt was insulting enough?
I have a DD who uses they them pronouns and in spite of the fact that I frequently get it wrong our relationship is still going strong because not all non binary people are as deranged as you.

Wow, what an psycho that person is. Thanks for having my back.

OP posts: