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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Algerian boxer filing legal claim over online harrassment

544 replies

GoogleWhacking · 10/08/2024 22:26

news.sky.com/story/algerian-boxer-imane-khelif-at-centre-of-olympic-gender-row-files-legal-complaint-over-online-harassment-13195264

She could have put this to bed by sharing DNA tests. I'm struggling to feel sympathy, although it must be horrid.

OP posts:
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Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 11/08/2024 12:30

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 12:16

Or is it merely hot air for publicly and no court case will emerge?

All I can smell is financial grift from this.

Agree but I don't think it's just that - as I said upthread I predict if they target anyone it will be women. Enjoying using their power to shut women up. Punching down on women, destroying women's rights and excluding women. All reasons.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2024 12:30

Agree @Dumbledoreslemonsherbets

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2024 12:35

You mean the woman who was punched in the nose and felt she couldn't breathe? The one who knew that Khelif was very likely male and felt that she had lost because the IOC would not guarantee either a safe or a fair fight because the IOC prioritises inclusion above fairness?

That woman?

Who said "non é giusto" (it's not just/fair) after the match.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 12:36

Newbie232 · 11/08/2024 12:23

Are you talking about the Italian boxer who trained and knew imane personally from a young age.

She embaressed her publicly on stage, probably out of jealousy and to take advantage of the ongoing media campaign against imane.

Wow.

Talk about illustrating the point.

FrippEnos · 11/08/2024 12:37

WeaselCheeks · 11/08/2024 10:05

Khelif needs to sue the IBA, as it's their tests that have caused the outrage.

It's an outrage which is justified if the tests are correct, because men with DSDs shouldn't be participating in women's sports, even if they were misidentified as female at birth. But, conversely, if the tests are inaccurate, then the IBA have caused a woman to be harassed and accused of being male when she's not.

People shouldn't be punished for saying that Khelif (or Lin Yu-ting) shouldn't be in women's sports when a major sporting body has publicly said that they're ineligible due to their sex. Rather than going after those people, Khelif needs to go after the IBA. Maybe she could... I dunno, do a new test to clear things up and prove them wrong?

She had a chance to appeal the test results of the IBA which (I think) she withdrew.
She has no grounds on which to sue the IBA.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 12:38

Helleofabore · 11/08/2024 12:29

You mean the woman who was punched in the nose and felt she couldn't breathe? The one who knew that Khelif was very likely male and felt that she had lost because the IOC would not guarantee either a safe or a fair fight because the IOC prioritises inclusion above fairness?

That woman?

Other women that boxed against Khelif and the other boxer, protested with xs with their fingers.

Therefore we conclude that all women who box against dsd males are bitter and jealous?

Odd that.

Ingenieur · 11/08/2024 12:46

StealthSpinach · 11/08/2024 12:13

Do you have a link for the interview with the coach, please?

https://www.lepoint.fr/sport/exclusif-jo-2024-imane-khelif-a-ete-aneantie-de-decouvrir-d-un-seul-coup-qu-elle-pourrait-ne-pas-etre-une-fille-09-08-2024-2567609_26.php

“After the 2023 World Championships, where she was disqualified, I took the lead by contacting a renowned endocrinologist at the Paris University Hospital, Kremlin-Bicêtre, who examined her. He confirmed that Imane is indeed a woman, despite her karyotype and testosterone level. He said: "There is a problem with her hormones, with her chromosomes, but she is a woman. That's all that mattered to us. We then worked with a doctor based in Algeria to monitor and regulate Imane's testosterone level, which is currently in the female standard”

JO 2024 : « Imane Khelif a été anéantie de découvrir d’un seul coup qu’elle pourrait ne pas être une fille ! »

INTERVIEW EXCLUSIVE. La boxeuse algérienne, malmenée par une polémique sur son genre, s’est entraînée durant des mois avec les Jeux en ligne de mire. Confidences de son préparateur.

https://www.lepoint.fr/sport/exclusif-jo-2024-imane-khelif-a-ete-aneantie-de-decouvrir-d-un-seul-coup-qu-elle-pourrait-ne-pas-etre-une-fille-09-08-2024-2567609_26.php

Jaxhog · 11/08/2024 12:54

The problem is that that we don't a clear and unambiguous definition of what a woman is. To my mind, to be a woman you have to have XX genes, have not gone through male puberty and have testosterone within a woman's normal levels. All of which is measurable. This would cover DSD people who would then have their sex legally defined as clearly male or female. It would also cover transwomen who choose to present themselves to society as 'women' , so would still legally be men.

I'd also like to see everyone defined as eligible for men's sport, unless they can prove they are a woman according to the above, and wish to compete as women.

Is that really so hard?

FrippEnos · 11/08/2024 12:59

Iwasafool · 11/08/2024 10:04

Why? Generally we are told, over and over again, if you have a penis you are male. With some of these conditions there isn't a penis so by that logic they aren't men or at least they probably have no reason to think they are men.

It must be pretty bloody horrific to find this out when you are an adult.

But we have also been told by TRAs etc that you don't need a penis to be a male etc.

It seems that this becomes interchangeable when required by one side, whereas the GC side (generally) has been talking about chromosomes, bone structure etc. as well as having a penis.

InWalksBarberalla · 11/08/2024 13:00

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 11:27

It’s utterly heart breaking to imagine what Imane Khelif must be going through. To have your identity questioned and to be publicly called a man must be incredibly painful, especially after dedicating your life to your sport and achieving such success. I can’t even begin to fathom how devastating it must be to face that kind of scrutiny and cruelty from people who don’t know you.

How many of us have ever had our chromosomes checked at birth? Most of us simply take our identity for granted, without ever having to prove it to anyone. At what point do people think she “became” a man? The idea is absurd and dehumanizing. Imane has been living her life as a woman, facing all the challenges and triumphs that come with it, and now she’s being forced to defend her very existence.

No one deserves to go through this kind of public trial. The focus should be on supporting her as a person, respecting her identity, and recognizing the hard work and dedication she’s put into her sport. It’s a reminder of the importance of empathy and kindness, especially in situations where we might not fully understand someone else’s experience.

Possibly it was quite a relief when he figured out he was a male during puberty given the differences in freedom and opportunities given to females and males in his community.

DandyClocks · 11/08/2024 13:00

any009 · 11/08/2024 02:21

What is it with you saying ‘he’ when SHE a woman? I don’t understand how you can be so horrible! she IS A WOMAN not a transsexual a WOMAN. she is from Algeria under Algeria law they do not recognise ANYONE changing their gender so her gender has NOT been changed her dad came out and provided proof of documents everything to show she is female. What is it with everyone? Lies have been spread and everyone is so quick to believe it. Just because she looks like a man does not mean she’s a man. Do more research.

Think about it in simple terms, being born without an obvious penis or descended testicles does not by default make you actually FEMALE, but you’re going to be declared a girl after a quick glance.

Having the XY chromosomes and going through male puberty definitely means that you’re a man.

highame · 11/08/2024 13:05

This thread has moved on too quickly for me to catch up, so my question might have been posed previously

Will those women who fought Khelif be able to sue IOC for potentially putting them in danger.

and.... If the IOC does a rule change, including testing within the next four years, will we see Khelif competing?

Omlettes · 11/08/2024 13:19

Jaxhog · 11/08/2024 12:54

The problem is that that we don't a clear and unambiguous definition of what a woman is. To my mind, to be a woman you have to have XX genes, have not gone through male puberty and have testosterone within a woman's normal levels. All of which is measurable. This would cover DSD people who would then have their sex legally defined as clearly male or female. It would also cover transwomen who choose to present themselves to society as 'women' , so would still legally be men.

I'd also like to see everyone defined as eligible for men's sport, unless they can prove they are a woman according to the above, and wish to compete as women.

Is that really so hard?

Edited

The real issue is that we are even discussing it.
Either we talk about what a man is as well, or neither.
Why the hell should only our sex be up for discussion as if we are some nebulous unicorn?
And why are we playing along?
We are the default and we gave birth to everyone.
6 years of this crap, men manipulating us into justifying our existence.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 13:20

highame · 11/08/2024 13:05

This thread has moved on too quickly for me to catch up, so my question might have been posed previously

Will those women who fought Khelif be able to sue IOC for potentially putting them in danger.

and.... If the IOC does a rule change, including testing within the next four years, will we see Khelif competing?

I think the bigger question is who will be the next IOC chief.

If it's Coe, I can't see the current position standing. Coe isn't as pro-woman as perhaps I'd like, but Coe does understand the DSD issue well.

Coe is unlikely to want the same controversy in Los Angeles.

Other possible heads I don't know their position on.

The issue with the suspension of the IBA is also unresolved. Reinstating the IBA or creating a new overseeing body the IOC approves of, neatly removes the IOC from having to clarify it's own position in future Olympics because they can say it's down to individual sports rather than take responsibility.

Jaxhog · 11/08/2024 13:22

Omlettes · 11/08/2024 13:19

The real issue is that we are even discussing it.
Either we talk about what a man is as well, or neither.
Why the hell should only our sex be up for discussion as if we are some nebulous unicorn?
And why are we playing along?
We are the default and we gave birth to everyone.
6 years of this crap, men manipulating us into justifying our existence.

Well yes, you're right. But if we don't come up with a solution for this, women will increasingly be beaten and cowed into submission and out of any meaningful existence.

Maybe we need to talk about it differently. In other words, everyone is a women unless they have a Y chromosome, have been through male puberty or have testosterone levels outside the female norm. And everyone submits a test for these as part of a passport application, like we ask for a photo and reference.

Helleofabore · 11/08/2024 13:26

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 12:38

Other women that boxed against Khelif and the other boxer, protested with xs with their fingers.

Therefore we conclude that all women who box against dsd males are bitter and jealous?

Odd that.

So very feministy to declare that a female boxer who protested about the woefully poor IOC policy that left that boxer open to significant injury as well as violating her own human right to equal opportunity is bitter and jealous.

How misogynistic can one get, I wonder? Oh... yeah... we have already had a poster this morning dismiss the danger posed in another poster's domestic violence experience. From posters centring these male boxer's and their emotional needs to compete in a boxing ring against female boxers.

But yeah..... right side of history and all that, eh Red? Do you think any of it makes them think....mmmmm.... did I really say that?

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 13:28

Helleofabore · 11/08/2024 13:26

So very feministy to declare that a female boxer who protested about the woefully poor IOC policy that left that boxer open to significant injury as well as violating her own human right to equal opportunity is bitter and jealous.

How misogynistic can one get, I wonder? Oh... yeah... we have already had a poster this morning dismiss the danger posed in another poster's domestic violence experience. From posters centring these male boxer's and their emotional needs to compete in a boxing ring against female boxers.

But yeah..... right side of history and all that, eh Red? Do you think any of it makes them think....mmmmm.... did I really say that?

Nope I don't think any of them stop and think about what they are saying.

They mean what they say. And believe it.

Make of that what you will.

GingerBeverage · 11/08/2024 13:31

Anyone remember the fake paralympians? Almost as if people will falsify to win.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w13xtvkz

RethinkingLife · 11/08/2024 13:36

If it's Coe, I can't see the current position standing. Coe isn't as pro-woman as perhaps I'd like, but Coe does understand the DSD issue well.

Coe is unlikely to want the same controversy in Los Angeles.

California is a self-ID state at local and state level. Coe may well not be able to do anything that is in opposition to local laws. I've no understanding of the intersection of international regulation and local laws.

4 years is not nearly enough time to put up the working groups and collate the reports.

softsummerrain · 11/08/2024 13:41

Omlettes · 11/08/2024 13:19

The real issue is that we are even discussing it.
Either we talk about what a man is as well, or neither.
Why the hell should only our sex be up for discussion as if we are some nebulous unicorn?
And why are we playing along?
We are the default and we gave birth to everyone.
6 years of this crap, men manipulating us into justifying our existence.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I understand the frustration and desire for clarity on what defines a woman, especially when it comes to the fairness and integrity of women’s sports. The points you’ve raised about XX chromosomes, testosterone levels, and puberty are certainly measurable factors that could form the basis of a clear definition.

However, it’s important to recognize that biology is more complex than these factors alone. There are people with DSDs (Differences in Sex Development) who may not fit neatly into the XX/XY binary but have lived their lives as women. This complexity is one of the reasons why defining sex and gender in strict terms is challenging, and why governing bodies have struggled to create policies that are both fair and inclusive.

The idea of everyone being eligible for men’s sports unless proven otherwise does seem straightforward, but it raises significant ethical and legal questions. For example, how do we address the privacy and dignity of individuals undergoing these tests? What about those who don’t fit neatly into these categories, like intersex athletes, who may have characteristics of both sexes?

I agree that it can feel like women’s identities are being questioned more than men’s, and that’s a valid concern. But I also think that as society evolves, these conversations are necessary to ensure we create spaces where everyone is respected and treated fairly. The challenge is finding a balance between protecting the integrity of women’s sports and being compassionate towards individuals whose experiences don’t fit neatly into traditional categories.

It’s not an easy issue, and I think that’s why we’re still discussing it. There’s no perfect solution, but I believe that by continuing to have respectful, fact-based discussions, we can work towards policies that uphold fairness while recognizing the complexities of human biology and identity.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2024 13:41

Yes I'd be very interested in an American legal analysis of what it would mean for the Olympics.

RedToothBrush · 11/08/2024 13:41

RethinkingLife · 11/08/2024 13:36

If it's Coe, I can't see the current position standing. Coe isn't as pro-woman as perhaps I'd like, but Coe does understand the DSD issue well.

Coe is unlikely to want the same controversy in Los Angeles.

California is a self-ID state at local and state level. Coe may well not be able to do anything that is in opposition to local laws. I've no understanding of the intersection of international regulation and local laws.

4 years is not nearly enough time to put up the working groups and collate the reports.

International agreed sports laws by governing bodies would prevent entry before you stepped foot in LA. Local laws are irrelevant for this point.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 11/08/2024 13:42

Yes you're right, I think @RedToothBrush

Omlettes · 11/08/2024 13:43

Jaxhog · 11/08/2024 13:22

Well yes, you're right. But if we don't come up with a solution for this, women will increasingly be beaten and cowed into submission and out of any meaningful existence.

Maybe we need to talk about it differently. In other words, everyone is a women unless they have a Y chromosome, have been through male puberty or have testosterone levels outside the female norm. And everyone submits a test for these as part of a passport application, like we ask for a photo and reference.

Edited

Thats more like it.
Better that than let ourselves be jostled out of the picture by spoilt brats whose mothers didnt set boundaries.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 11/08/2024 13:43

I find it astonishing that so many people value female sport so little. They clearly see it as the pity category. Why else are they so keen to allow males with medical conditions in?

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