What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

If your voice breaks at puberty and you grow an Adam's apple and male pattern body hair and male musculature, instead of having periods, it must make anyone wonder if they are, in fact, a girl. Especially in countries where 46 XY 5ard DSD is more common. The colloquial name for this DSD is 'penis at 12' because the virilisation of testosterone at puberty means that the male organs put on significant growth.

You think this is a woman, OP? Seriously?

My biggest problem with the trans debate is trans women telling me that 'just because I have a vagina and uterus and I have given birth' I don't know what it means to be a woman, according to trans experience.

Also, this seems like a bizarre way that you have rationalised this, what are you on about? Who cares what men who wrongly think they are women "experience"? My biggest problem with the "trans debate" is that women can no longer have single sex spaces when we need them, and that it's a green light for all sorts of misogynists.

You don't actually need to have a vagina and uterus and give birth to be a woman. But it's a female experience, yes.

There is no excuse not to know for sure. The IOC should know for sure whether these two boxers are female or not, and should have disqualified them from the competition if they are not.

Following the Laurel Hubbard debacle in Tokyo, the IOC tried to absolve themselves of all responsibility for ensuring fairness in the women's categories by saying they would leave it up to the individual governing bodies for each sport to decide on the eligibility criteria.

The governing body for boxing disqualified these two boxers from competing on the basis of the results of the tests that they had carried out.

If the IOC decided that the credibility of the IBA was in doubt and therefore the results of their tests couldn't be relied on and their decision should be disapplied, they should have carried out their own tests.

They did not do so.

Why?

Because if you ban a male athlete with a DSD from competing in women's categories then you also have to ban male athletes with transgender identities from competing in them. And the IOC doesn't want to say that trans women are not real women because that wouldn't fit with their "so woke our brains have fallen out" image.

No! This proves nothing and is unhelpful, in fact entrenches Imane’s supporters in their opinions.

This kind of image can be easily faked.

There is better evidence- the testimony of the IOC, the WBO, IBA, EUBAA and the video interviews given by her coach which have been translated and transcribed.
He says Imane is a woman, and has issues with her chromosomes and testosterone levels which are being suppressed. He describes the massive medical support Imane has received to achieve this. Details the experts around the world that have contributed to Imane’s training.

All the information shared points to a specific DSD which requires Imane be male. There is no DSD of women which meets the evidence we have.

I find it fairly shocking the number of people who don't know the difference between a vulva and a vagina. Having external genitals that look superficially, at birth, like a vulva, doesn't mean that the baby in question has a vagina, or a uterus.

Interestingly, males with 5-ARD don't grow coarse hair - that's one of the signs. They don't grow beards or much in the way of pubic hair.
The colloquial name "penis at 12" is particular to one specific area - southern central Africa, I think. In other parts of the world where it clusters, they have different names for it, but it shows it's well known as a phenomenon in some parts of the world.
I was listening to Dr Emma Hilton, who is an expert, and she said that the greatest incidence worldwide is in Egypt and Turkey! Although there are clusters in the Dominican Republic (the Guevedoces community), and southern central Africa - and probably others that I don't know of.
It's tempting to think that in those places, a) there is no stigma and b) the "girls" just accept that they are turning into grown men, not women.

You've been given every available piece of evidence indicating that Khelif is male in this thread. Why ignore it all?

Please explain the XY karyotype results from two independent laboratories, and a member of Khelif's own coaching team stating that Khelif was assessed by an endocrinologist who identified chromosome and hormonal abnormalities, and that Khelif has recently been on testosterone suppression.

How does this evidence fit with your view that Khelif is female?

I knew I recognised that graph. Iirc veronica ivy/Rachel McKinnon used very specific criteria for the graphs. The height one was a masterclass in graph making to show your biased view.

Or in other words women are not often as tall or taller than men, but veronica's choices of athlete women who were taller than average and Male athletes shorter than average made a very interesting graph.

Only X chromosomes

How many times does this need to be said?

The IOC is NOT going to run tests because for the past 25 years, since the IOC dropped sex testing specifically to allow these male athletes to compete in the female category, the IOC's policies has been to allow male people with male pubertal advantage to compete in the female category. They are not going to run tests. They have stated very very clearly that these boxers fulfil the IOC criteria to compete.

You really seem uninformed about this topic and yet, you are the one here that is denigrating and demonising and with the 'baying mob' dehumanising people who seem to be much better informed than you are.

In fact, it may not surprise many of those who are better informed, but the WA guidelines which meant that many of these male athletes that are almost certainly expected to have exactly the same type of DSD as these two boxers were suddenly 'excluded' from athletes so they could not compete at the Olympics.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/65051900

13 of them in fact! Just in athletics.

13 MALE PEOPLE WITH DSDs JUST IN ATHLETICS IN 2023.

"Coe said this will impact 13 DSD athletes, seven (55%) of whom compete in running events above a mile, with six (45%) in sprinting events below 400m."

But no doubt, unless Coe completely removes the loophole and simply says 'no', ie. not even with a testosterone level of 2.5 nmol/L suppression condition, many of those 13 will be out there attempting to qualify to get into the 2028 Olympics because they will have kept their testosterone level down for 2 years.

What part of elite female sports categories have had male athletes with DSDs that meant male virilisation competing since the sex testing was stopped is confusing?

Why then is it suddenly so hard to believe that it is highly likely for these athletes are indeed male as per the IBA tests indicated?

A question was asked upthread about Semenya? Semenya was one of 3 male athletes that won 1st, 2nd, & 3rd in the female 800m. Semenya has female on their passport. The only reason Semenya is not competing in the Olympics is because the WA regulations would force Semenya to suppress testosterone from 21 mol/L to 2.5. Semenya took the IOC to CAS about the IOC changes to this before the IOC pushed the responsibility to organise and regulate all sports to their international sporting federations.

What is the difference between Semenya pre-CAS evidence and even since and either of these two boxers? Proof? Fuck that. Nobody will release the 'evidence' in the detail that some people are insisting on unless it is done via court cases. It can only ever be assumed because the WA tests have been done and have been believed. Whereas the IBA tests have been done, and are not believed by some and the IOC, an organisation with a very long history of corruption continues to be believed over the IBA, WBO & EBC.

So, well done all those declaring 'no evidence'... you must feel good that for years to come there will be nothing to convince you otherwise because until one of the boxers starts saying things as Semenya has recently like 'my testicles don't make me less of a woman', you can continue on your righteous way. And you can ignore the issue while demonising, dehumanising and vilifying those who disagree with you and understand the IOC's policy history and how this situation came about.

I am sure you will all feel lovely because if in the future these two boxers just disappear (I mean Lin is now rumoured to have been set up financially with a large lump sum and $3,500 per month for life) and the truth will never be known, you will continue to feel righteous. Yet will have done nothing but support male athletes being included in female sports categories. Something that it seems some of you agree should not happen, but seem to be fully willing to believe that despite testing, these two boxers are female and feminists are vile, disgusting and braying mobs.

zib

I think it is because some people choose to believe that the IOC is squeaky clean and doesn't have a long history of corruption. So they choose to accept the IOC judgement vs the IBO, WBO & EBC. Because, the IBO has been declared corrupt by the corrupt IOC.

Because the IBA, from which the results have been taken, are a banned governing organisation. And theres nothing from the IOC to prove otherwise.

The IBA ordered the tests. The actual testing was done twice on each boxer, eight months apart at two different ISO accredited labs.

Concrete vase

And why do you think that the IOC have not done any chromosomal testing? It's a cheek swab and you get a result within hours.

I don't think anything will convince you. You've ignored all the evidence that exists, the comments by several women who have fought against them, the IOC faux pas, the interview with coach George Cazorlas. You just handwave it away because you believe the IBA is more corrupt than the IOC. And that fine. We can disagree, can't we? You'll just have to continue being "appalled" by our wrongthink I guess.

Could it be possible that we have differing opinions perhaps.

I have literally been told, whilst pregnant, by a MTF trans member of my family that that she has more of an experience of being a woman because a trans woman has it much harder than a cis woman. When my argument was 'I am a woman because of my being pregnant and experiencing life as a biological woman'. Which is where that comes from. It's not that 'bizarre' an opinion to have.

It might not all be to do with single sex spaces - to be honest that's more of a safety issue caused by men pretending to be trans rather than trans women themselves.

I have an issue with being told I am a man if I insist I am not. I have an issue with someone else being told that when they are insisting they are female.

It might not all be to do with single sex spaces - to be honest that's more of a safety issue caused by men pretending to be trans rather than trans women themselves.

Any male who calls himself a woman is a "trans woman", there is no gatekeeping. The problem is the male sex, whatever they call themselves. There is no evidence (and you like evidence) that "trans women" pose any less risk to women than other members of the male sex. Plus it's not just about safety, it's a privacy and dignity issue.

have an issue with being told I am a man if I insist I am not. I have an issue with someone else being told that when they are insisting they are female.

You do realise that many "trans women" also insist they are female? Aren't they wrong?

The IOC claim that there isn't a test for sex, because their isn't a test for the IOC definition of sex. Thats a fault with the IOC definition, not the lab that complete the testing.

The IOC want the test to be positive for women, men with dsd and men who have a woman gender identity. As theres not a test that can reliably separate these groups from men, they are using passports. Thats because those groups can get a female passport, not that they are the same sex.

The difference, @concretevase, is that your insisting that you are female doesn't impinge on the rights and safety of others.

When my argument was 'I am a woman because of my being pregnant and experiencing life as a biological woman'. Which is where that comes from. It's not that 'bizarre' an opinion to have.

It's got little to do with you actually being pregnant, you don't have to get pregnant to be a woman. It is about you being female. You are right that being pregnant is a female experience, but it's odd that you take any notice of what this male says about it. They don't have the power to bestow womanhood on you or take it away. What a woman is excludes them by default. You are female, in the same way that this person is male. And in the same way Imane Khelif is male. It's not a matter of identity.

Excellent point.

Thank you for the info Snowy. I read that men with 5 ARD grow male pattern body hair but not facial hair. Sounds like the coarseness is a factor too.

Your argument doesn't seem to account for the fact that some people talk bollocks. You don't have to accept everything that people say as the truth.