What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

Nowhere has Khelif claimed possession of a womb and ovaries.

I think the truth of the matter is that it is trans allies and gender true believers who are most keen to deny the reality of DSDs and the fact that they are disorders of either male or female development.

If someone who was mistakenly recorded as female at birth and who has been socialised as a girl in the early years (until the evidence of puberty became glaringly clear) can be excluded from the female category - then surely so will all male people who claim female identities.

We all knew it was going to be children ( puberty blockers) and sport that brought the house down......and so it has come to pass.

The IOC wanted to see just how far they could push the boundaries in deciding to make boxing the test case.

Given, to my knowledge, the boxer in question has not claimed (and still less been proven) to have a fully functional female reproductive system, OP might want to be very careful about accusing other people of "lying".

OP might want to be very careful about accusing other people of "lying"

this, there seems to be all this evidence that the boxer in question in actually female with absolutely no evidence ever produced (on numerous threads)

There’s been a few threads recently where people have arrived with very strong opinions, declared everyone who disagrees with them is stupid and ignorant and needs to educate themselves, and then proceeds to demonstrate they’ve got absolutely nothing to back up their opinion, done not even the teeniest amount of background reading, paid attention to any opinion they disagree with.

Whereas the people with the other opinion demonstrate that they are not only well read on their own opinion, but have paid close attention to other opinions in order to be sure they understand the evidence on both sides. But they are considered the ignorant baying mob.

Now, there may be an ignorant baying mob out there, wanting to hound Imane out of the Olympics. I haven’t seen it though. Only extremely well read people who don’t believe Imane should box women, and an ignorant mob who bay that she should.

I find those who make negative generalisations and sometimes abusive statements towards the group who disagree with male people with pubertal advantage being allowed to access female sports categories tend to either up end admitting or showing they have no understanding of sport. They may even have negative opinions about competitive sport. Else they understand sports and agree male people with male advantage should not be in the female category, but they want to virtual signal their support of people’s identities. They wish to shape the discussion into fitting their personal opinion of what kindness looks like.

It never surprises me that the kindness centres vulnerable male people over female people as a collective though.

Several instances in this thread accusing khelif of lying, read my post properly.

Truth is you have no proof Khelif is male. Else you would produce it and you have not.

Where is your evidence of the coach and the DSDs which you were going on about?

It's her word against the IBA. And she is accused of lying. And the IBA is a banned governing body.

She is also, on this thread, accused of being a man because she 'looks like a man'.

She has also, on this thread, been accused of being a man because 'in Muslim countries she would have been married by now' and therefore couldn't possibly have been a boxer or have lived her life as a female.

It's mob mentality. There's something despicable and un feminist about it, racial undertones, and I would urge you to read up about micro aggressions to women of the Global South if you are so very interested in evidence.

If the test results obtained by the IBA were not considered trustworthy enough by the IOC, why did the IOC not run their own tests?

I wholeheartedly agree that if khelif is male she shouldn't be punching females in the face for sport.

But I don't think she is male. And have not seen any evidence otherwise.

You know you can't just publish other people's private medical information without their consent, right?

@MissScarletInTheBallroom

Exactly - why haven't the IOC run their own tests?

The point is THAT we do not know for sure.

The point is THAT we do not know for sure yet we are holding up pictures of someone who has said 'I am a woman and have always been a woman' and saying 'no you are not because you look like a bloke'

This, I'm trying to say, is un feminist.

If I am wrong, and she is a bloke, ok I will put my hands up and say I am wrong. I will eat my hat. I will post my personal address and you can all send me a card saying I told you so. I will repent.

But what if I am not wrong? What if she genuinely is female and always has been, and was telling the truth all along? And this mob mentality is now the ugly face of feminism, or what is has evolved into because of how we are handing the transgender debate?

But what if I am not wrong? What if she genuinely is female and always has been, and was telling the truth all along?

What if I've got a really interesting bridge to sell you?

Where is your evidence of the coach and the DSDs which you were going on about?

I posted the relevant bit. RTFT you started.

OP, do you still think Caster Semenya is a woman?

Then I will throw a picture of said bridge at you and say it's not bridgey enough and therefore is not a bridge.

You are funny OP you believe what you want, and so will other people. You only "can't see the evidence" because you have chosen not to.

But I don't think she is male. And have not seen any evidence otherwise.

Where is the evidence that khelif is female?

Khelif was tested in an accredited lab and the results were interpreted as not eligible for the female category. Khelif didnt follow through with any challenge to that interpretation.

The IOC say that they are taking documents as proof of eligibility for the womens category, not test results.

We know that for more than one reason, it is possible for people to have the incorrect sex markers on their passports and birth certificates. Lots of other sports don't use these as proof of sex for this reason.

The IOC could have sorted this out well before these athletes even qualified by carrying out tests. Then everyone could be sure that they arent watching men hit women for entertainment.

Because you have made a choice to ignore the evidence that has been presented.

What reason do you have for explaining why Dr. Ioannis Filippatos, an obstetrician gynaecologist would be lying about the results? Or do you believe he is mistaken?

I don't think she is male. And have not seen any evidence otherwise.

Nope. Can't see a thing. It must not exist.

Read your own thread. People have posted the trainer's statement, they've posted analysis from an expert who's seen the test results. You're going to want some gravy for that hat.

People have explained over the course of at least threads what their own rationale is for believing Khelif is male. OP doesn't have anything to counter it or refute it other than "you can't prove it".

At least 6 threads.

I've been to lesbian weddings where both brides wore dresses, and one where both brides wore a suit. But I've never been to one where one bride groped the other bride's breasts in the wedding photos. It's almost like Caster's wife doesn't think Caster is a woman.

And here's an interview where Caster describes women and girls as 'they' and 'them'. It's almost as if Caster has forgotten he's supposed to pretend to think he's a woman.

OP didn't bother to answer this point in any sort of reasoned way, she just called me a "quintessence keyboard warrior" and said she just believed Khelif and Khelif's supporters. Because they'd have zero reason to lie, obvs.