What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

I get the feeling that this is now deliberate ignoring the facts.

The IOC will not ever produce anything to 'prove otherwise'. Why? Because they have been very clear since November 2021, that their priority is inclusion. They have no requirement to 'prove otherwise'.

I am not sure you are understanding the IOC guidelines and just what they allow versus the sporting federations who were forced by the IOC to develop their own policies and why.

Just to recap how we got here

1999 - From what I gather, from the Nature article I keep posting on all the threads (but am on my phone so can’t access it to post) is that a campaign group successfully convinced the IOC in the late 90s to prioritise inclusion. Because of what they position was the human rights violation of these male athletes with DSDs suffering indignities during testing and the outcomes of that testing.

So in the late 90s they removed testing. 82% of female athletes wanted testing to remain.

Ie. The group campaigned that any male with a Difference of Sex Development that had been incorrectly registered as 'female' on their passport was to never be sex tested by the IOC again and allowed to compete as if they were female, regardless of whether they had gone through male puberty.

OK?

Mid 2000s - Then in early 00s they allowed male people who surgically removed their testes to compete in female competition. Because once you allow one group of male people in, you must equally allow the other in or you are discriminating against transgender people.

2015 -Then in 2015, a campaign group including Ivy/Mckinnon and Harper, using Harper’s flawed study (see nequals8.com web site) convinces the IOC that it is unfair discrimination to exclude any male with a transgender identity describing themselves as a woman. The IOC changes the policy to allow them.

2016 -Then came the Rio trio in the female 800m and we start to see the testosterone suppression of the male people with DSDs come in. Semenya takes this to court in 2019. Appealed 2020. The evidence presented confirmed 5ARD and testosterone of 21 nmol/L.

2021 - 2020 Tokyo games held in 2021 was the testosterone suppressed games. Hubbard, a late 40 something male in female event where next youngest was probably a decade and a half younger, shines light on the issue.

The IOC reacts by announcing a review.

The new guidelines released Nov 2021 devolve responsibility for policy to each discipline’s international federation. ie. They force the sporting federations to make the hard decisions that the IOC refuse to make.

They also reaffirm that 'inclusivity' is their over all priority. They say that safety is as well, but this is clearly contradictory when you consider boxing as an example.

The IOC is clear that they RECOGNISE that the inclusion of male athletes will be UNFAIR but their priority is inclusion. Richard Budgett said this.

The federations then develop their own policies. that have done this are : FINA, WA, UCI, IBA and WR. FIFA for instance announced a review years ago and done nothing. IBA announced their new policy in 22/23.

The WA have even stated that their new guidelines for the Olympics immediately excluded 13 males with DSDs with testosterone advantage from the competitions until those 13 male athletes chose to reduce their testosterone to 2.5 nmol/L for 2 years. 13 just in athletics competitions alone! (By the way, this reduction has already been shown to not eliminate unfair male advantage, but this is where we are at the moment.)

By the IOC removing the IBA from organising the boxing, the IOC left boxing only with the IOC inclusive guidelines.

So, to repeat, we know from the announcement by Budgett from IOC in November 2021 that fairness was a lower priority to inclusion. It was along the lines of ‘we know it is unfair to include male people with pubertal advantage, but inclusion is our aim.’

And the IOC and other organisations still claim that Semenya is a 'female with naturally high testosterone' to this day. Despite the world being easily able to find the evidence presented to the CAS that Semenya is MALE with 5-ARD and had tested with a testosterone level of 21nmol/L. NO female has that level and is healthy. They are likely to be gravely ill.

Yet, this is what the IOC keeps repeating and people just keep accepting this as true. Because apparently the IOC is a bastion of truth!

That is where we are now.

The IBA tested, they are not allowed to release the results. And they should not because it is an athletes medical history. They CAN and HAVE stated clearly multiple times that the athletes are male with testosterone advantage as per their exclusion from the IBA policy. That is all they can release. The policy the IOC forced sports organisations to develop because the IOC refused to.

The IOC is not going to test anyone who has fulfilled the criteria of 'female' in the passport and previous inclusion in competition, regardless of whether an athlete is now excluded with new policy restrictions. But they are not going to test anyone.

The IOC will not ever produce anything to 'prove otherwise' while their policy is in place as it is now.

I have an issue with being told I am a man if I insist I am not. I have an issue with someone else being told that when they are insisting they are female.

In the context of a boxing match?

Boxing is divided by sex, age and weight, for saftey reasons. What would the reaction of the audience be if the IOC removed all tests for weight and used other id, that they know isn't reliable, to prove weight?

It's mean to call a 20 stone man heavy, but in the context of a featherweight boxing match, relevant.

Its the same with sex. When sex is relevant it isnt an issue to talk about it. Just because one person said something bonkers to you, doesnt mean we should pretend some males are female.

I get the feeling that you are choosing not to read posts.

WTF.

What some male person has told you about their ludicrous claim that they have 'more experience' of being a woman, is fucking irrelevant to the discussion about sport.

And FFS. Why would you listen to such a ludicrous claim in the first place?

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is. They either do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life).

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

To think the statement your relative made is a valid statement around what a woman is, means that person believes in post modernism and certain philosophical beliefs. And not one person on this planet needs to comply with the demand to affirm those beliefs.

Thank you. (and commenting for easy re-access). Very clear timeline.
Would be great to see this level of factual overview and clarity in msm.

Regardless of differing 'opinions' and whether or not you or anyone else might have an 'issue' with a certain type of thing - biological facts remain consistent and durable. XY is biological male, XX is biological female.

It must be tough to suddenly realise you are not quite what you thought you were.......but given time it is possible to adapt to the newly revealed reality - and in many ways it may well start to make sense of things you've always felt; the ways you never quite fitted, or felt 'different' from the other girls/boys.

All transwomen are by nature and by definition - male.

It might not all be to do with single sex spaces - to be honest that's more of a safety issue caused by men pretending to be trans rather than trans women themselves.

Sigh, it's as if all the words we write are just blah blah. They hear what they want to hear.

So for the lurkers, if a man states he is now a woman/female, for all purposes he is now a woman. That includes but is not limited to
Hospital wards
Rape crisis centres
Any female only toilet
Prison
Youth hostel room
Changing rooms. In shops and sports centres and wherever else you get changing rooms.

Because that's the way it is now.

And for concrete who posted the utter tripe in bold, how do you personally tell the men pretending from the real deal?

Cos we've all been dying to know since 1972

No worries Baba.

I have been posting this post (albeit with out the years at the start of the paragraphs) for weeks now in one form or other.

I am sure that if the OP was actually keen to understand what was happening and people's views they would have read the numerous informative threads that have been going from the beginning of the olympics when this story first broke.

It actually shows a pretty determined attempt to not try to understand the many patient posts just on this thread and to continue to double down on the dehumanisation and demonising of people who clearly have a deeper understanding of it all. To be blunt, it comes across, whether intentional or not, as someone who is very confused but is keen to virtue signal that they are morally superior.

Rachel McKinnon is now known as Veronica Ivy, so referring to her as Rachel is dead-naming and highly offensive.

Educate yourself.

I have literally been told, whilst pregnant, by a MTF trans member of my family that that she has more of an experience of being a woman because a trans woman has it much harder than a cis woman. When my argument was 'I am a woman because of my being pregnant and experiencing life as a biological woman'. Which is where that comes from. It's not that 'bizarre' an opinion to have.

I'd say 'huh' but I guess in your head this makes a male boxer fine to punch women or something?

😂

He didn't mean it when he mentioned the grease fire!

My favourite McKinnon/Ivy tale is when he raced in Manchester and one puzzled older person wanted to know what the 'lardy lad' was doing racing with the women.

OP, your feelings were hurt when your foolish relative tried to diminish your identity as being less important than his, despite you being pregnant at the time.

You’ve taken your pain at his poor behaviour and identified it onto Imane. Because it was awful being told you weren’t a proper woman the way a man who had to work at it is.
So you think it’s awful for Imane.
You are misapplying your outrage.

Now, your relative who is adamant they are more of a woman than you- he would be allowed in the ring with women by the IOC. You know that’s wrong. You agree that’s wrong.

The IOC is using that same system- the one you know is wrong- to include Imane. Other sports organisations wouldn’t allow Imane to compete among women. The coach acknowledges there was a problem with the sex testing and the testosterone levels. Other coaches acknowledge there was a problem finding peers to train with Imane, they had to get high ranking men for that. The IOC themselves have acknowledged that Imane isn’t trans and it’s not ‘not a DSD issue’, and that the criteria Imane competes under is the F in Imane’s passport.

My favourite McKinnon/Ivy tale is when he raced in Manchester and one puzzled older person wanted to know what the 'lardy lad' was doing racing with the women.
Bahahaha

And also, presumably, that it is true.

Almost everyone here has educated ourselves.

That's why we're gender critical.

I think that the post was sarcasm. Deeply sarcastic.

Why. Is. There. Nothing. From. The. IOC. To. Prove. It. One. Way. Or. The. Other?

If you decide not to recognise the authority of the organisation that claims to have tested these athletes' chromosomes and found that they are male, you need to do your own damn tests before allowing them to compete in female categories.

Not just rely on what it says in their passports, which may have nothing to do with their actual biological sex.

I guess you're joking but just pondering....surely it's only deadnaming if it reveals a difference in sex. Otherwise its just using a different name.

Fuckoff its about how in Islam and other religions women and girls can be only seen as valuable as wives and mothers.

I dont believe for one min this guy has lived as a woman.
Nothing indicates either from him or people around him that he is viewed as a woman in his society

I dont even think this guy has a DSD. I think the IOC pulled that out their ass when people started speaking out.

Someone said something mean to me so I'm going to give away all female boxing is a weird flex.

Hahaha, okay, apologies @Allthegoodnamesarechosen , it's very hot here today, I'm not firing on all cylinders

I wonder what the chances are of those people, entered into the correct category for their sex, also being Olympic athletes?

I have literally been told, whilst pregnant, by a MTF trans member of my family that that she has more of an experience of being a woman because a trans woman has it much harder than a cis woman.

Well, the only thing to do is laugh at such a ridiculous statement.