What is a woman?

[concretevase]

I just wanted to clarify what everyone thought this meant given recent events at the olympics.

A person born with a uterus and vagina, raised female, with boobs and has periods and the ability to carry and birth a child is not a woman?

This could all be settled today by Khelif taking another sex test. But Khelif doesn't want to. Why is that?

This is getting so boring and yet the answer is so simple.

Female: Member of a species (who reproduce sexually) who produce ova.
Male: Member of a species (who reproduce sexually) who produce spermatozoa.

Hermaphrodite: Member of a species (who reproduce sexually) who produce both gametes. Does not apply to most cases of DSD and is extremely rare in humans.

Woman: Adult female human
Girl: Juvenile female human
Man: Adult male human
Boy: Juvenile male human

Nice summary but hermaphroditism doesn't exist at all in humans.
A hermaphrodite would be a person who could, with their own sperm, impregnate a woman AND with their own eggs, conceive and gestate a baby.

A Snowy say, no recorded cases of full hermaphroditism in humans.

There is Ovotesticular Syndrome and there are recorded cases where individuals were able to have children.

ETA: But it's a mood point, as this is still a disorder and surgery was required to make it happen.

Yes this. A woman is anyone who is, was, will be or would have been able to produce large gamates.

No person in the history of humankind has produced both sperm and ova. The presence of a fully formed and function uterus has been documented in male people, ie. those who have a XY genotype. One could argue though that they are still genotypically male. It did not make their genotype female.

Moot point.

😁

Completely agree. Yet when we have in front of us a woman who is saying she is and has those things we have become a despicable baying mob telling her she is lying, with no plausible evidence of the lie occurring. Some of us even holding up pictures saying "look HE looks like a man and therefore HE is a man"

I'm simply saying that is not right.

We can argue until blue in face about testosterone levels and share meta analyses but they baying mob mentality here is the thing I am disappointed with.

Completely agree. Yet when we have in front of us a woman who is saying she is and has those things we have become a despicable baying mob telling her she is lying, with no plausible evidence of the lie occurring

There is plenty of plausible evidence.

Khelif's trainer announced that Khelif has a chromosome abnormality and hormonal problems. He also stated that, since being disqualified in the 2023 World Championships (for having an XY karyotype), Khelif has been on a testosterone suppression regime.

What sort of female has XY chromosomes and needs to pharmaceutically lower testosterone?

Please consider the evidence.

Baying mob [well, women typing words] versus males punching women in the face. And in the back of the head whilst their necks are on the ropes.

If he was an actual woman nobody would give two shiny shits about his rights to punch people.

So it comes down to:

One group believes the evidence as presented by the IBA rather than from a person who stands to gain substantially from denying the tests.

One group choosing to believe two people (because everyone seems to forget Lin) who deny the tests because one of those people has captured attention with their history.

But the group choosing to believe the tests and science are the ones being called names and vilified. By those claiming to be on the right side of history, the morally superior side etc. Yet the reality is, that group also never mentions the impact on the female athletes at all. It is endless outpourings of emoting though, for the male athletes. But ... yeah.... I am sure that feels good.

Sadly zib we can all keep repeating it, but it matters not to a person determined to portray others as hateful for their own personal needs.

It is endless outpourings of emoting though, for the male athletes. But ... yeah.... I am sure that feels good.

It's very much like the endless outpouring of emoting for "trans women", while no one gives a shit about women.

Has 'plausible' now got a new meaning too? Or was that meant to be 'irrefutable evidence that involves divulging an athlete's private information that the athlete has explicitly and rightfully, refused to allow to be shared'?

Op it isn't just a baying mob. There's lots of evidence, to at least prompt an investigation. You'd fail as a lawyer.

In fact, with the accurate testing available, I believe that even those with ovotestes can be reliably categorised as either male or female.

I doubt they are aiming for 'lawyer'. I would think 'influencer' is more their aim. Maybe even 'shock jock' opinion piece media pundit.

True. Eggs still aren't kept in the uterus.....

What a bizarre thread. OP seems to accept the biological definition of a woman, so therefore seems to be arguing that the male (with DSD) boxers don't actually have DSD and are biological women, perhaps just with high testosterone levels, possibly because they are pregnant (because is pregnant and that creates higher testosterone levels). Really bizarre line of logic based on zero evidence or reference to the widespread coverage which has confirmed DSD. Or does OP think they are women with DSD? Why would anyone bother to mention the DSD if they were biological women?

therefore seems to be arguing that the male (with DSD) boxers don't actually have DSD

Despite both the Olympic committee and a medical expert on the coaching team of one of the boxers both confirming DSD.

Ovotesticular syndrome: about 50% of people with this (incredibly rare condition) produce eggs. Only 2 have ever been found who produce sperm (ans only 1 of those actually confirmed as fertile) - and neither of those also produced eggs.

No human hermaphrodites.

I think you are talking about twitter...not mumsnet, when you refer to a "baying mob"

So many people go to twitter to enegage in discussion - but the nature of the paltform does not encourage thoughtful discussion.