Thread 4: TWO “Female Boxers” Set To Compete At Paris 2024 Were Previously Disqualified From Women’s World Championship For Having “XY Chromosomes”

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Thread 1

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5129412-two-female-boxers-set-to-compete-at-paris-2024-were-previously-disqualified-from-womens-world-championship-for-having-xy-chromosomes?page=1

@eatfigs (thx for translation)

I'm agog.

That article isn't just the smoking gun. It's a signed witness statement and confession.

But all smoothed over using trans-inclusive style definitions of and constructs of woman.

I honestly thought the whole camp would double down on obfuscation. Instead they don't feel the need now the gold is in the bag.

Imane is an XY person (man) with testosterone lowered to avoid anti-doping breaches. Confirmed direct from 'her' camp.

It's such a sickening disgrace.

Yet it makes sense in light of Caster Semenya. Just a continuation of that.

I suspect in both the 57kg and 66kg comps you might need to go to fifth place to have all females.

I had to comment on the DM article about the supposed "vindication" and the rebuffing of critics. Most commenters weren't having it either. There's nothing to be "vindicated" over. No one was "proved wrong." Even the man in charge of the training program doesn't hide that IK has XY chromosomes.

Nothing like cheating your way to a win to rebut your critics!

Funny Lance Armstrong never thought of using that argument.

I bet Armstrong's kicking himself now for not trying the 'I can't have been doping - I won!' defence.

'A girl's sensitivity'.🙄

So we can't have 'special categories' because 'there are differences between them'.

I see.

Very interesting interview, thanks @eatfigs

"We then worked with a doctor based in Algeria to monitor and regulate Imane's testosterone level, which is currently within the female norm. Tests clearly show that all her muscular and other qualities have been diminishing since then. Currently, she can be compared on a muscular and biological level to a woman-woman-woman."

So if someone else doped for years, developed their muscleature while taking huge amounts of testosterone and then reduced it before competing, we would be supposed to be ok with that? We know that the testosterone level within "the female norm" that sporting organisations have set is actually multiples of what a "woman-woman-woman" has.

Like Emma Hilton said it is shameful when sporting organisations stick their heads in the sand until these cases come to light and allow certain people to be thrown to the wolves. That being said for Imane/Algeria to pretend like there isn't a DSD at play here and to allow that lie to be repeated on the internet and stated to be Russian disinformation is an awful lie by omission and they must have known this was coming after the IBA disqualification.

Isn't it amazing that there is no advantage to any of this but yet out of 6 womens boxing categories at the Olympics 2 of them were won by those with DSD's so 1/3 of gold medals were won by people with a condition that effects 0.018% and we're supposed to pretend that there is no advantage?

It’s an active disincentive. It’s been clearly demonstrated that women and girls don’t matter in this context. So why would you train and compete if a man’s preferences will always be advanced over yours, even when it’s your head being punched.

Does anyone know if either of those boxers lost a single round in the whole competition?

They both won every round.

They really are just taking the piss out of women now aren't they!

I can't believe people are falling for this crap!

I haven’t seen the article from le point being picked up anywhere, I suppose it’s still early or I’m looking in the wrong places. I do love the idiots who are excited thinking that JKR is getting sued. Khelif and Algerian boxing couldn’t even get an appeal for CAS.

This will have well and truly peaked a few; I've just seen an uncharacteristic text from Dh sent last night when I was asleep watching Netflix in bed ranting about two men winning in boxing "clearly fair 🤨"

I wonder whether they're using 5nmol/L (initial athletics limit) or 2.5nmol/L (updated athletics limit) or another value as the "female limit". I wonder whether they committee to 6 months of suppression, or just during the competition. I wonder why no one was shouting "tested by the IOC as within normal female levels" from the rooftops?

This all implies a lot of conversation with, and testing by, the IOC. Who have been steadfastly maintaining these athletes are common garden nothing-to-see-here, we-don't-even-need-to-repeat-that-dodgy-IBA-testing, females. Unless this guy means that they managed to get Khelif's levels so low during the competition that no flags were ever raised?

It also implies that the IOC has a robust DSD policy in boxing which very clearly sets out the different standards athletes with different conditions must meet (as in athletics). If the IOC has such a policy, and Khelif and Lin (why is everyone only talking about Khelif?) meet their criteria, then why haven't the athletes and the IOC all explained this?

Even after all his scientific self-back-patting, that French doctor still fell back on the witless ‘but it can’t be unfair because other athletes are taaaaaaallllll’ nonsense argument. Honestly, they just can’t help themselves, can they?

And as for ‘gee whiz, Imane is just a simple country girl boxing her way out of poverty’, we now discover that the boxer licensed in Nice relied on a group of experts based in Algeria, the United States, and also in France. Now with an ‘American-Cuban’ coach. Quite an impressive and expensive support team for ‘just a girl’.

What are the chances of that?

Those other women really need to put a bit more effort in.

why is everyone only talking about Khelif?

For me, Khelif stands out more because he's a shit boxer, ridiculously arrogant and it seems there is more info out there on him. Lin seems not to be a shit boxer (in terms of technique). And he doesn't seem to be such an arrogant shit.

Lin a good boxer? The one who threw illegal punches to the back of the head while their opponent’s throat was on the ropes?

There's odd framing of the scandal on the BBC. They're going for the line of "the two boxers were able to win gold in spite of the controversy" as though it was an unfair obstacle put in their way by others that they managed to overcome through grit and determination. When it was the cause of the controversy that was exactly the thing that gifted the gold medals to Khelif and Lin.

It’s probably been quite useful for Lin in terms of Khelif keeping the attention well away. Just goes to show how crap the media coverage is - they’re interested only in the ‘story’ of the Khelif narrative so they practically ignore the much bigger, overarching scandal that’s right in front of their noses.

I wonder whether messing with a perfectly normal endocrine system like this is actually healthy for the person.

I said not a shit boxer, rather than a good boxer. But maybe Lin is a good a boxer as I am at articulating my point properly 😆

Gold for second gender-row boxer as Imane Khelif alleges ‘harassment’.

https://www.thetimes.com/article/728eb29e-77a5-477c-b61e-e04c5945cded?shareToken=369d6b362012464800da7d80780ea1c1

Interesting comment from Lin in this article “I was invited to compete by the IOC”.
Suggests the IOC approached the boxer rather than the boxer’s national body approaching the IOC.
If that is the correct inference, it wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.