My adult children don’t speak to me – I blame their therapists

[IwantToRetire]

NB - this is not about trans children, but thought some of the experiences seem to be the same, and the article seems to focus on mothers ...

“They have all talked to therapists in the various places and countries they’ve lived. They all seem to speak the same ‘therapy language’, talking about ‘toxicity’, and ‘boundaries’. It seems like a witches’ cauldron of dark forces feeding the whole scenario. The children seem happy to carry on with blaming us for anything and everything that doesn’t tally with their unreasonable expectations of us.”

“[Therapy encourages] people to do things for their mental health, and what’s best for them, and relationships are now governed on the basis of whether or not they promote one’s happiness. The idea of previous generations that you cared for your family, that you had duty to them, has been replaced by a more self-centred perspective.”

Where does therapy come into this? “The goal of therapy is often to not feel so guilty or obligated or responsible for other people’s feelings. Your obligation is really to yourself and your own happiness. I don’t think a lot of therapists have really reckoned with the harm that can be done by supporting or encouraging estrangement.”

“There’s been an enormous expansion in what gets labelled as harmful, abusive, traumatising, and neglectful behaviour in general. I often see adult children who have different ideas of what constitutes mental illness and harm and abuse, trauma and neglect, compared to the parents. I see parents so confused, because they think: ‘But I gave you a great childhood, I’d have killed for you.’ The idea of trauma has become more subjective, so that if you say that someone has traumatised you, then they have traumatised you.

“I see things get labelled ‘traumatising’ or ‘triggering’ which would have, to previous generations, been seen as the normal slings and arrows of family life. Therapy has given adult children a much bigger stick with which to beat their parents, and the parents – particularly those who feel they gave their kids a far better childhood than they experienced themselves – are left confused.”

Just a few paragraphs from a much longer article at https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/adult-children-dont-speak-to-me-blame-therapists-3158291

Can also be read at https://archive.ph/3BENZ

@Garlicfest I'm just interested in if you think it is only a lucky few who have competent balanced parents?

If you think most people are good, how do you account for amount of domestic abuse between romantic partners?

It's not a majority of relationships, sure, but it's a sizeable enough minority for people to believe it exists, is serious and is not just a case of people being too sensitive or just not being prepared to work on their relationship.

Same with parents. I think it's not the majority of parents (if it were, then abusing your children would all that children would/could expect) but it's certainly a sizeable enough number for it not to be ignored.

The beauty of forums like MN is that you can find any number of threads from posters whose parents were toxic, ranging from "only" emotional abuse to long standing physical or sexual abuse. Before the internet, most people in these sorts of families thought (because their parents told them so) that all families were like that, and they were the problem for not liking it. Now, with social media, children (or at least teens) are much more attuned to what a healthy relationship looks like. I personally think this is a good thing!

I am sure there are some children who cut off loving parents for absolutely no real reason. But I suspect they are heavily in the minority.
Most people will be cutting off parents because of long standing issues that they have tried and failed to resolve. There will also be people who do this because they have controlling partners, have mental health conditions, or are engaged in substance abuse. In the latter cases, I hope that the parents are able to retain a lifeline to their child and are later able to reconcile.

That's an interesting point. I think going NC is a personal decision and for some people an absolutely necessary thing to do. For me, I'm glad I didn't in the end though I went through a phase of going LC with my mum so that I could work through the anger. It was akin to a period of mourning for the childhood I lost. I maintained contact for my kids sake; having had the loneliness of growing up I didn't want that for my kids. I wanted them to know their wider family and to feel a sense of belonging. Of course it meant I was hyper-vigilant and I would not open up about my children's disabilities too much in case my mum became judgemental and nasty. She wasn't; she became a better grandmother than she ever was a mother and I'm glad my children got that. Hopefully, the cycle of abuse in my family will start to die out and my children, in turn, will become even better parents.

@redskydarknight

*If you think most people are good, how do you account for amount of domestic abuse between romantic partners?

It's not a majority of relationships, sure, but it's a sizeable enough minority for people to believe it exists, is serious and is not just a case of people being too sensitive or just not being prepared to work on their relationship.

Same with parents. I think it's not the majority of parents (if it were, then abusing your children would all that children would/could expect) but it's certainly a sizeable enough number for it not to be ignored.*

You said it yourself, it's not the majority. I don't think this means it should be ignored either, but don't think it's the case that most people and relationships are abusive which is what is being suggested by some.

It's like on the LTB threads- we tell women all the time, don't accept this, it's not normal. And yet this thread would seem to suggest that abuse actually IS the norm and loving, healthy relationships are the exception, and actually a really difficult, unattainable thing to achieve. this doesn't ring true in my experience nor do I think it's a helpful narrative.

I don't have any data for you, @fundbund. But I could refer you to the droves of teachers leaving due to disorder and violence.

Found some data!
Public Health England says that for every 100 adults in England, 48 have suffered at least one ACE. Adverse Childhood Events are pretty serious things, which traumatise the child.

Many more children go through unpleasant experiences that their primary caregivers are incompetent to help them with or are caused by their emotional environment at home. So, all in all, the kids with rock-solid emotional security and capable family backup will be a minority.

but don't think it's the case that most people and relationships are abusive which is what is being suggested by some.

Has anyone said that?

A lot of people have pointed out that some parents are abusive, and that abuse can be serious even if it is not physical.

Other people have suggested that all families have their ups and downs and unless there is "serious abuse" (which they seem to mean of the beaten up every night type level) they should just work together to resolve them.

I don't think anyone has said that all families are abusive? Except in hyperbole to make a point?

If all families were abusive then no one would know what "non abusive" even was.

I am very aware of problems in teaching as I am a teacher myself! In fact one part
Of my job is recruitment of initial teacher trainees so I am very aware of issues with requirement and retention. But I don't think violence per se is as big a factor as other things like workload, the overloading of the curriculum, low level disruption and pay and conditions particularly now that there are many well paid wfh jobs available.

As a teacher I am also aware of ACEs. But these can include things like bereavement and divorce, which aren't the same as abuse, although they can still have devastating effects, obviously. I'm not convinced that that data supports your assertion that it's only minority of people have balanced, competent loving parents.

I really want a clarification what exactly constitutes the caveat of "except in case of abuse and neglect". How exactly does that look to the posters that use it ?

No one has said "all".

Some people have suggested "most"

@Garlicfest referred to "The few young people who are fortunate enough to have emotionally balanced, competent and securely loving families"

*Recruitment not requirement!

@Garlicfest There was a big study published in Australia in 2020 that found 30% of people aged 18-65 had suffered abuse or neglect in childhood. 40% had been exposed to domestic violence. (I've got my training notes and could find the source if anyone would like but I'd have to look it up).
What upset me most about the data is that the numbers aren't getting better. So I'm very wary of the narrative that surviving an abusive childhood gives a person understanding and awareness of how to parent and care for children well. I really thought my generation - to me it seemed like we were the first ones talking about childhood sexual abuse out loud - were going to turn things around. But talking about it hasn't done enough.
I don't feel comfortable telling other people's stories, even on an anonymous forum, but I was one of the youngest cousins (and had my own child late) so I've watched the "trauma aware" bring up the next generation to adulthood. I think the awfully difficult thing about parenting is that there isn't one error mode. You can be to emotionally repressive and unloving, undemonstrative, but you can be too emotionally chaotic, too, exposing children to too much of your own highs and lows. That's one example, there's a million ways we can get it wrong.
This is a very gloomy blog post but it kind of communicates what I'd want to say via the stories of others in my extended family:
medium.com/out-of-the-pen-of-babes/what-martin-miller-taught-me-about-parents-83c32f57318c

That's the thing a lot of people aren't getting, @LilyBartsHatShop: there is no perfect parent. There are different levels of imperfection, to be sure, shading right down to nightmarish torment and murder. But nobody's perfect, so even the good-enough parent must accept (if they care about their children) that they've hurt, even harmed, their offspring. If their adult child says their hurt is deeper and longer-lasting than the parent realised, this may be a blow to the parent but it is unkind to deny and dismiss them. Calling the child a liar, a fool, telling them how to feel, would itself be abusive.

Surprised nobody's quoted it yet ...
'This Be The Verse' by Philip Larkin

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don't have any kids yourself.

Oh, and thanks for the reminder about Martin Miller's book! Had it on my wishlist for years, just ordered it 🙂

That verse was the first thing I thought of when I opened this thread!!
I had another thought that ties back to what prompted @IwantToRetire to post the opening article on FWR.
Trans rights is a kind of over-correction, that has become an agressive and harmful social movement.

The desire to be open and inclusive, in response to the rigid conformism of previous generations, instead of producing utopia, has led to the mess we're in.

But there's also...

They tuck you up, your mum and dad,
They read you Peter Rabbit, too.
They give you all the treats they had
And add some extra, just for you.

They were tucked up when they were small,
(Pink perfume, blue tobacco-smoke),
By those whose kiss healed any fall,
Whose laughter doubled any joke.

Man hands on happiness to man,
It shines out like a sweetshop shelf
So love your parents all you can
And have some cheerful kids yourself.

The poem I thought of when reading this thread was the Carol Ann Duffy one:

Nobody hurt you. Nobody turned off the light and argued
with somebody else all night. The bad man on the moors
was only a movie you saw. Nobody locked the door.

Your questions were answered fully. No. That didn't occur.
You couldn't sing anyway, cared less. The moment's a blur, a Film Fun
laughing itself to death in the coal fire. Anyone's guess.

Nobody forced you. You wanted to go that day. Begged. You chose
the dress. Here are the pictures, look at you. Look at us all,
smiling and waving, younger. The whole thing is inside your head.

What you recall are impressions; we have the facts. We called the tune.
The secret police of your childhood were older and wiser than you, bigger
than you. Call back the sound of their voices. Boom. Boom. Boom.

Nobody sent you away. That was an extra holiday, with people
you seemed to like. They were firm, there was nothing to fear.
There was none but yourself to blame if it ended in tears.

What does it matter now? No, no, nobody left the skidmarks of sin
on your soul and laid you wide open for Hell. You were loved.
Always. We did what was best. We remember your childhood well.

I actually think the Larkin poem is making the very opposite point to the ideas put forward in this thread- to me he is saying that parents are flawed human beings, and that the process of selfhood involved recognising this and separating oneself from one's parents is a universal part of the human experience which can be painful but is an essential part of growing up.

That's different from saying that most parents are toxic and abusive to the extent that most children will need therapy and /or estrangement to overcome their childhoods.

I am also concerned re some of the discourse re ACEs in this thread. I don't think that ACEs should be conflated with abusive parenting- this is a gross oversimplification. Parental abuse is one example of an ACE.

The training I have received suggests that things like bullying, growing up in poverty, divorce and bereavement are all counted as ACEs. But growing up in poverty,
For example, does not preclude having a loving parent.

I agree about ACE not necessarily being parents fault.

My own ACE was witnessing the death of a younger family member and the devastating aftermath.
At no point were any adults in my life to blame for the situation , but it has negatively impacted on my life.

@Noideawhatiam I'm sorry, that sounds very difficult.

Thanks for giving me something to reflect on.

I have a question, not necessarily for you to answer but you may have valuable insight, which I'm going to find difficult to express. When one's child is a fully grown adult, who is living fully independently, is there a point at which we should expect him or her to take equal responsibility for the current relationship? It seems to me that often adults struggle to take that final step of freeing themselves from the child/parent relationship, so that any disagreement is framed as parental disapproval.

My situation, as the parent in the relationship, is that my son appeared to have freed himself from having the same worldview as me long ago; though I found aspects of that a little concerning and difficult, I accepted that we didn't have to have the same beliefs, and our relationship continued to be, from my perspective, a good one. He didn't demand to have his beliefs affirmed by me, and we were able to discuss matters of politics and religion and ethics without any detriment to our relationship.

That all changed following his announcement of a trans identity. Now, he requires me to affirm his beliefs, and he seems unable to understand that I love him but that I don't agree with his worldview that a man can be in some sense actually be a woman. He is hurt that I "don't accept him", whereas I am hurt that he is trying to manoeuvre me into changing my use of language, which is extremely confusing and distressing. Is his need for me to use the language of his worldview, denying the existence of my son and accepting him as my "daughter" (which messes with my whole worldview and results in mental confusion), partly because he has not actually finished the leaving process from his childhood family relationship? He now seems to be close to cutting himself off entirely, when I would have thought a reframing of the child/parent relationship is what is needed.

@fundbund your explication of the Larkin poem is very close to what I was hoping to communicate with my posts - but I guess it's a difficult topic to talk about. I may not be writing clearly.
I agree about the ACEs not being solely about abuse. There are ten, from the big study, and one of them is being a child of divorced or separated parent. As 50% of marriages end in divorce it's not surprising 48% of adults have experienced at least one ACE. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-are-aces-adverse-childhood-experiences-5219030
@RapidOnsetGenderCritic what stood out for me in your story is the rupture that your son's declaration of a gender identity seems to have been, in your experience of him. I don't have any advice. It's really hard to show a son that you love and accept him when he has such a tight and rigid sense of what acceptance has to look like.

the emphasis of such parents is invariably the exterior things they did. What other people could see. And they can be charming or whatever for a few hours.

Emotionally dysfunctional parents in the home are a totally different thing. With no one to watch they are abusive, careless and cruel. Then they tell their child to forget it.

No contact is very appropriate for emotionally abusive parents. Everyone sees it. I think that is why such parents hate it so much.

Just having one ACE can be of course be traumatic enough to account for poor mental health or other issues, but generally is the accumulation of them that result in possible bad outcomes. From memory, I think 4 or more increase significantly the risk of mental health issues, addiction issues and (interestingly) physical issues as well , like heart problems or T2 diabetes.

I won't deny that Phillip Larkin is a very good poet (in fact I have a couple of books) and while I like his poems I get bit tired of his cynicism. What he says is there to be recognised. But he thinks - and this is true of all his poems - that pathos is to be revelled in and it's somehow the only true feeling. It's very English. I don't live in the UK any more and that is something I don't miss. Give me the Peter Rabbit version instead!