olympic car crash

[lonelywater]

I thought after the WPATH debacle that would blow the lid off, once and for all, gender woo having any further influence in medical matters. Do we think the IOC will simply try to style this out with "nothing to see here" or will radical change be a result? No idea myself as there seems to be still far too many nutters in positions of power.

Lol that headline. We're through the looking glass.
I saw a story recently about Semenya and his partner expecting a child, which managed to say nothing at all as one might see in an article about a lesbian or gay couple, as to how the child was conceived. Not that I'm saying it's everyone's business, just interesting to note the vagueness and omission.

See former E German athletes & Flo-Jo, who died v young. Why would apparently healthy, super fit women drop dead of heart problems?

This is off topic but I thought Flo-Jo died from an epileptic seizure caused by a brain abnormality.

nothing will change during these games-that would be the equivalent of erecting a ten foot high pink neon sign over the Eiffel Tower saying "we are batshit mentalists who dont know our arse from our elbow".

That would make a spectacular closing ceremony!

But I guess if they can get people to shut up about this one then it'll truly be anything goes.

Exactly. It's like the breastfeeding man, as a trope.

What annoys me about the whole thing is that people are arguing left right and centre about are they a woman or not but the whole ‘why do we actually segregate by sex ‘in the first place has been completely lost now. All the arguments are now about fairness to the individual competitors affected rather than fairness to the contest as a whole. Until they start at the top and start with the question ‘what is the point of this specific category and how do we ensure that category is fair then all it is is just lots of people arguing without any evidence. The IOC should have to answer that question before they answer anything else

I suspect a great many people I personally know and by extension quite a few others have forgotten that men as a class really are faster and stronger than women as a class and by quite a bit, even among elite athletes. They see the existence of women's sports as about adjusting mental attitudes toward women participating than being about physiological needs. Solve the problem of women not feeling allowed to participate and then you can just say, all right, that's done, now we can be "inclusive." Sometime in the '90s it become verboten to point out that men and women were physically different, because at least in the US it was seen as conceding to the right.

The Paris Olympics will always be remembered for this.
Hopefully Sen Coe will be in place soon.

Seb!

To be frank, Semenya always comes across as really arrogant and entitled.

Passport, according to Mark Adams.

What hasn't really been discussed, is that if it's done by passport, then any 'transwoman' could be boxing women.

What hasn't really been discussed, is that if it's done by passport, then any 'transwoman' could be boxing women.

Yes, agree that is the elephant in the room here.

why? Because she was doped up to the eyeballs for at least part her running career. Can I prove this? No. However, consider the following. Her record of 10.49 was set 36 years ago-since then no one has come even close to that time. The only records of similar longevity and untouchability are from East German athletes known to have been doped by the state-i.e. the 1983 800 meters of Kratochvilova. Her progress was suspiciously meteoric, being a fairly average (within elite circles) runner 2 years before these records. In 1989 the IOC announced that out of competition drug testing (i.e. anywhere, anytime, without prior notice) was from now on the rule. When does Flo jo decide to retire? two weeks after than. At least one sprinter refused the offer of training with Flo jo's coach, Bob Kersee, due to persistent rumours about his promotion of drugs. Her early death is just the icing on the cake.

exactly - then what is the point about sex segregation? I always believed the question is ‘what makes an objectively fair competition to all’ but this has moved to ‘what is subjective fair competition to an individual?’. This needs to be discussed and formalised at high level. The other arguments all stem from which side of this coin you are arguing from which is why no one is right as no one knows what the actual question is .

And I really think they need to drop the testosterone argument (not talking about Khelif, but more generally). If you're a man, you compete with men, regardless of testosterone levels. As we know, there are other male advantages than testosterone, but in any case, I don't think we should be encouraging athletes - or anyone else - to drug themselves for financial gain.

When these games are over, I’d love to see some really high-level male athletes, gold medal winners and prospects, rhe sort that
fans come to see, have the marker in their passports changed to F so they are ineligible to take part in headline men’s events at the next games …. And watch the IOC’s stance change before the deadline

are there any male athletes sporting enough to do that for us?

My rough understanding is that the IOC has pushed the buck for eligibility onto individual sports organisations, who have been gradually introducing rules on sex/DSDs - see Semenya.

But because the IBA was given the boot the eligibility falls to the IOC. Who haven't really got a coherent response/stance/standards because their framework is based on 'gender identity'and doesn't mention sex.

Well, funny you should say this, but they've threatened the whole sport of boxing, by saying that unless they get rid of the international boxing federation (the ones who banned our XY womanly competitors), then boxing WILL NOT FEATURE in the next olympics. The IOC are an amateur organisation and NOT specialists in Boxing yet they're deigning to rule over this.

Someone in the IOC got a trans kid. I'd bet my house on it.

ah feck it, I was just going to post 'what a pity you weren't in charge of the opening ceremony..'
Great minds, eh, Ereshkigalangcleg!

I know what you mean, but that last sentence is a really unfortunate way of describing someone's tragically young death.

So are the boxers being tested for any kind of doping at all?

I think if all you have to look forward to is a life of poverty and obscurity (and possibly suffering prejudice due to your DSD) and someone comes along and offers you a shot at fame and fortune, an awful lot of people would take it, particularly if they tell you (correctly, I think, based on the rules in place at the time) that you meet the requirements of the female category and are not actually cheating.

It's wrong, obviously, but I can totally see why these athletes do it.

Other than the women’s boxing, this Olympics has been absolutely fantastic. I would rather remember it for Keely Hodgkinson’s spectacular gold in the 800 this evening, or Valerie Allman’s utter grace in the discus - and that’s just this evening. The venues and crowds have been absolutely amazing.

yes, I grant you that -an unfortunate phrasing. What I meant was the final proof of her. lets say, suspicious timeline.

I agree they have done that but it makes no sense. The IoC should set the criteria at the top. Why should different sports have different rules? They should formally set the rules of engagement for the different catergories and why they have created those categories. E.g the purpose of catergorising by sex is to achieve XYZ, the purpose of us having weight catergories is to achieve XYZ. ( in effect they do this for he Paralympic’s in order to catergorise different impediments to compete against each other). If they want to swap to gender not sex they need to explain the purpose of the category and what it is trying to achieve. Only once you have that high level reasoning can you then devise the appropriate OBJECTIVE test to put people into the catergories. Nothing will change whatsoever until they do this. It will just be lots of name calling and arguing. Just terrible leadership quite frankly.

I agree - I think it's unlikely women boxers have higher than average testosterone levels, unless someone has actually done a study (and I'm sure we would have heard of that) or he means the male kind of women.

There was one study that showed that male elite athletes often have lower than normal levels of testosterone - I think the demands of training were cited as one possible reason so it's possible the same is true for women.